| Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source [11] |
|---|
From: John Zyla <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:00:00 GMT
There's been some talk about methods of balancing B-Bands. Here's a
slightly edited version of a descriptive email I sent to L. Pattis on
my method. This is not sanctioned by EMF in any way, and I have no
connection with EMF outside of the fact that I use B-Bands and love
them. In fact, the folks at EMF think the public might think putting
clay into a guitar is weird, so - remember this is John Zyla speaking
- not EMF ..... Anyway, it works extremely well in my limited
experience using this method - perfect balance the first time on
guitars that were giving me fits otherwise.
<< start text >>
You've installed a great number of B-Bands, I understand, so you might
appreciate this. I love the B-Band, but I don't like balancing any
pickup using shims. It's too much of a hit or miss process.
Well, I got to thinking about the possible causes of balancing
problems, and it all boils down to, in one way or another, a failure
to completely and evenly transfer pressure from the top of the
saddle down through the "sandwich" structure of the pickup, to the
wood of the bottom of the saddle slot. From reading of other luthier's
experiences, it seems that just making sure your saddle is flat on the
bottom, and the slot is flat, doesn't always guarantee a trouble-free
balancing especially with the B-Band, because it's stiffness tends to
exaggerate the effect any (even miniscule) sloping of the saddle or
slot routing.
So, the task at hand was to devise a method by which one could ensure
a pretty much consistent transferance of pressure, without having to
go through the trial and error exercise of shimming. Shimming is fine,
it's just not an efficient use of the luthiers time, because results
aren't predictable.
I got to thinking about how fine target rifle barrels are "bedded" to
the stocks using fiberglass and other compounds, and this lead me to
consider using bedding in this application. Actually, I considered
this very early on, just had not decided on a bedding material.
I do a bit of ceramics work as a hobby, and am quite familiar with the
properties of various clays, and it hit me that this may be the
answer. The properties I wanted for a bedding material were:
1. The material must not be adhesive, except to itself - i.e. we do
not want to "glue" the sandwich together!
2. The material must conform to surfaces, but be hard - so that it
would transparently transfer pressure. A soft material would color
the sound. This would not be acceptable.
3. The material must have a fine grain structure so that it can be
used in a very thin layer so saddle height is not affected
appreciably. It's important to note here that the only function the
material must perform is to ensure even pressure transfer, so a thin
layer is all that is needed. Indeed, a *more than thin" layer would be
detrimental.
The material I decided to try is a self-hardening modeling clay. This
clay hardens without firing, is adhesive only to itself, and has a
very fine grain structure. Amoco "Mexican" or "Marblex" self hardening
clay is what I have used. This is available at art supply stores or
university book stores that have an art supplies section. It's
important to find a source that sells it once in a while, so you get a
reasonably fresh box. A 32 oz brick costs about $5.50 around here.
Enough to do about 30,000 saddles, or a few saddles and some neat
sculptures.
Here's the applcation method simplified. If you're interested and want
to try, I can go into more detail, let me know.
1. Lay down a very thin layer of bedding in the saddle slot, tamping
reasonably flat.
2. Install the pickup over the first layer.
3. Lay down another very thin layer on top of the pickup.
4. Install the saddle, and string the guitar, tuning to pitch.
5. The whole "sandwich" will cure in a day or so.
So there you have it.
<< end text >>
John Zyla
From: John Zyla <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:38:51 GMT
Organization: remove "NOSPAM" from my address to reply
On 15 Jul 1999 15:36:42 GMT, <dunwell.guitar@dorje...> wrote:
Alan, I'll imbed some answers to your further questions below ….
>John,
>Good idea, I didn't realize that there were self-hardening clays, perfect!
>Some more questions:
>- Can you please be a bit more specific as to what a "ver thin layer" means in
>aprox. inches or mm?
As far as layer thickness, I haven't measured exactly, but it's just
really really thin -think as thin as you can make it and get a solid
layer (without holes). I'm estimating .25 mm or less. I actually leave
a bit of open space around the perimeter (think the "walls" of the
saddle slot) so that the stuff will squish out toward the walls as
saddle pressure is applied. This ensures that I end up with a thinner
layer than I could apply by hand.
>- Do you just make a small roll and then tamp it in place, or do you try to
>flatten it ahead of time?
I actually apply the clay with a Popsicle stick that I have trimmed a
bit on one angle to make it pointier. Dab up a bit of the clay on the
stick, then tamp into the slot. I tried the roll method and it seemed
that I could not make a small enough roll - important to realize the
layer is just as thin as you can possibly make it. I also use a
technique where I get some of the clay on the end of the stick, then
wipe it on the side of the slot - think of cleaning a peanut-butter
knife on the edge of the jar - same idea. Then I tamp down into the
slot.
>- Have you ever had the clay squish by the pickup and bond the upper and lower
>layers together and if so, does it matter?
Yes, in fact I consider it a good thing, but that's not a scientific
estimation - just a feeling.
>How good is the non-adhesive nature
>of this clay, is the pickup separable from the clay afterwards?
The clay when dried (hardened) can be broken easily in thin layers -
so it's extremely non-adhesive. I've removed B-Bands from slots
installed this way - just take the same Popsicle stick tool and
lightly scrape an edge of the layer off on the free end of the pickup,
then pull the pickup up and out. I use a dental probe to snag the end
of the B-Band (these are great tools - ask your dentist for a couple
of them - when they dull, the dentists throw them into a box in the
back room (cleaned) - mine gave me a handful of them). Any remaining
clay can be wiped off of the pickup between two dry fingers. A
slightly damp paper towel is just effective too. One can clean the
stuff out of the saddle slot with a dry toothbrush - the wood is
porous so wiping only may leave a few tiny bits in there - hence the
need for the soft toothbrush. . . Very non-adhesive as I say. There
is zero permanent adhesion to anything of a smooth nature such as the
B-Band element. In fact, the layers will tend to settle over time, -
improving the contact layer - but if you remove the saddle you may
have to re-do the clay installation if any of it falls out. I tape the
saddle on to the bridge with a single strip of scotch tape if I've
taken off all of the strings for any reason.
>- What sort of total thickness do you end up with for the two layers and the
>pickup, ie: how much do you need to route?
Again - I've not measured, it's less than one half millimeter. I
don't like to route if I don't have to, and these installations added
so little that I just took a bit off of the top of the saddle and
re-profiled a bit. I probably wouldn't even have had to do that except
I'm way too picky (anal?) and am fanatical about achieving low
actions.
I apologize for the long post.
Grace and Peace,
John
>
>Thanks for the info,
>Alan
From: Nelson Foster <nelsonfoster@worldnet...>
Subject: Re: Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:49:17 -0400
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
John - I also thought about the problem with the shims and how it is time
consuming, I hadn't thought of the modeling clay tho' - that seems like a
great idea. I tried using some flour (it isn't self adhesive - in fact it
doesn't adhere to anything ) and it almost worked - it was better than
shimming. So I had stuck this idea of using a packing material aside for
now - thanks to you I might make another attempt.
I got an email from B-Band a week or so ago and they mentioned that any
material used to shim should not compress (such as a strip of thin rubber)-
because they were concerned about preserving the tone of the guitar. I
assume that modeling clay is not going to compress. . . so before I try this
. . . how does it affect tone? especially on the higher strings?
Thanks in advance,
Nelson
From: John Zyla <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
Date: 16 Jul 1999 00:49:07 -0500
Organization: Zyla Guitars
On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:43:58 -0600, <abuse@127...> (Larry Pattis)
wrote:
>In article <7mm33c$fs5$<1@bgtnsc03...>>, "Nelson Foster"
><<nelsonfoster@worldnet...>> wrote:
>
>> John - I also thought about the problem with the shims and how it is time
>> consuming, I hadn't thought of the modeling clay tho' - that seems like a
>> great idea. I tried using some flour (it isn't self adhesive - in fact it
>> doesn't adhere to anything ) and it almost worked - it was better than
>> shimming. So I had stuck this idea of using a packing material aside for
>> now - thanks to you I might make another attempt.
>>
>> I got an email from B-Band a week or so ago and they mentioned that any
>> material used to shim should not compress (such as a strip of thin rubber)-
>> because they were concerned about preserving the tone of the guitar. I
>> assume that modeling clay is not going to compress. . . so before I try this
>> . . . how does it affect tone? especially on the higher strings?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Nelson
>
>
>Nelson,
>
>Remember, John is using "self-hardening clay," not modeling clay (if there
>is a difference?). Since I have not yet embarked on my own experience with
>John's technique, I cannot yet comment about the compression/acoustic sound
>issue.
>
Larry is right. Even though the Amoco self hardening stuff is
"modeling clay per se", there is also non-hardening modeling clay. You
will see a brand called "Sculpey (tm) " on the shelf next to the self
hardening stuff. I have not tried this, but it did not meet my specs
according to my hypothesis of what properties I wanted in a bedding
compound. I believe a soft pliable modeling clay such as Sculpey (tm)
might tend to color the sound, and my prime goal is to not affect the
tone in any discernable way. As I have mentioned to some folks, I use
the clay when I seat all of my saddles whether I am installing a
B-Band pickup or not. The reason I do this is to ensure a perfect
transfer of pressure from the saddle to the bridge (saddle slot
bottom). I do notice that I get a better (actually - I should use
the words "more consistent") sound when I do this. I am a firm
believer that the saddle is an extremely important link in the
transfer of modulated pressure (sound!) in the guitar. This is why we
all have opinions on what saddle material is best, and all that - it's
an important link. I use bone! - Tried 'em all (except carbon fiber)
and settled on bone. I need to try the carbon fiber composite stuff
cause high tech materials interest me. I think I'll end up staying
w/bone though - it's a gut feeling.
Here I've gone and written a too-long post - again I apologize for the
bandwidth usage. Please forgive me I get carried away.
Grace and Peace,
John
>Larry Pattis
>
>Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
>
>Liberal Palette Records
>http://liberalpalette.com
>"Music Without Borders"
From: Tom Loredo <loredo@spacenet...>
Subject: Re: Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:47:07 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
Hi folks-
John's method is fascinating and certainly worthy of exploration.
I just wanted to note one slight complication.
> 2. The material must conform to surfaces, but be hard - so that it
> would transparently transfer pressure. A soft material would color
> the sound. This would not be acceptable.
It is absolutely true that a soft material will color the sound. I
just want to point out that a hard material can color it, too. The
most relevant parameter is probably not hardness per se, but acoustic
impedance. Whenever a vibration has to pass from a material of
one impedance to a material of a different impedance, part of the
wave gets reflected at the interface. One of the cool things about
the B-band material is that it has very similar acoustic properties
to wood, so the B-band/slot interface should be essentially transparent,
and the saddle/B-band interface should behave just like a saddle/slot
interface. Adding stuff to either side could influence the tone
even if that stuff is very hard. The fact that the added material
here is very thin might complicate or simplify matters, depending
on the speed of sound in the material (I would guess that what matters
is the size of the material relative to the wavelengths of interest).
That said, if the added material makes the mechanical contact more
consistent across the whole slot, the improvement from that (with or
without a pickup!) could very well completely mask some slight
complication due to additional mismatched impedances.
Peace,
Tom Loredo
From: Tom Loredo <loredo@spacenet...>
Subject: Re: Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:06:43 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
John Zyla wrote:
>
> Thanks for the comments. This is what is needed - peer review. There
> may even be a better substance (probably is!) for the bedding
> material. I encourage folks to experiment with this.
Well, as I mentioned, the fact that you are improving the contact
may well completely overwhelm impedance matching issues. I just don't
know enough acoustics/material science to know what will matter most
here. It is very probably complicated enough that having the
cleverness (and audacity?!) to experiment as John has is the only
way forward.
One possibility for experiment, besides trying different materials,
would be to try using the material only on one side. For example,
if the hardened clay is acoustically more like bone than like
wood, then any impedance-mismatch effects should be minimized if
you use it only between the saddle and the B-band. It could be
that using just one layer provides enough "stuff" to squeeze
around and deal with the slot/saddle/B-band imperfections, and
putting it where it essentially just extends the acoustically
similar saddle is enough. Though for all I know hardened clay is
acoustically more like wood than bone, in which case.... Well,
you get the idea! Trying just one layer might also reduce the
action increase. The B-band itself is pretty flexible, so I would
guess that the problems can be dealt with by "bedding" just one side.
Larry wrote:
> From now on, Tom (with your permission of course), I will be running all
> of my "tech" posts by you for evaluation and approval first!
No permission granted; you certainly don't need any such evaluation!
Nor does John, or many others here, and in any case I'm not the one
to be giving it. I just get a kick when a bit of my physics training
ends up having some relevance to music, and I make comments like
the acoustic impedance stuff more just out of my excitement about
the connection than out of any direct relevance to the practical
issues, which are usually too complicated for me to really grasp at
a theoretical level! With this stuff, it's fun to theorize, but
you really just have to play around. And play, of course!
> Thanks, for about the ba-zillionth time, for adding your wisdom to all of
> our existences.
Back at you! And also to John, who is clearly the real clever man in
this thread....
Peace,
Tom
From: <hedberg@my-deja...>
Subject: Re: Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:09:31 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
In article <<378F7E2B.AB801415@spacenet...>>,
Tom Loredo <loredo@spacenet.tn.cornell.edu> wrote:> It is absolutely true that a soft material will color the sound. I
> just want to point out that a hard material can color it, too. The
> most relevant parameter is probably not hardness per se, but acoustic
> impedance. Whenever a vibration has to pass from a material of
> one impedance to a material of a different impedance, part of the
> wave gets reflected at the interface. One of the cool things about
> the B-band material is that it has very similar acoustic properties
> to wood, so the B-band/slot interface should be essentially
transparent,
> and the saddle/B-band interface should behave just like a saddle/slot
> interface. Adding stuff to either side could influence the tone
> even if that stuff is very hard. The fact that the added material
> here is very thin might complicate or simplify matters, depending
> on the speed of sound in the material (I would guess that what matters
> is the size of the material relative to the wavelengths of interest).
Awe jeez, Tom!
You are right about the reflection at the interface (of course, you
don't need me to tell you that). The greater the contrast in the
acoustic impedances the greater the reflection. Acoustic impedance is a
function of density and acoustic velocity. Layers that are thin with
respect to the wavelength tend towards invisibility, though, so even
though the layer (hardened clay, for example) may have an acoustic
contrast with respect to the bridge material and the bone of the saddle,
it might still be acoustically invisible if it is sufficiently thin.
You allude to this as well. My suspicion is that a thin layer of
hardened clay shouldn't affect the Tone (as Pierre would write it) a
whole lot. As it gets thicker, though, it becomes non-invisible to
frequencies with shorter wave lengths (higher frequencies) first. I
think this is called "dispersion" -- frequency selectivity with respect
to reflection, attenuation, and velocity.
One thing that should be pointed out, I guess, is that impedance does
not imply attenuation (i.e. energy dispersal). Attenuation is
inversely related to hardness though not only to hardness. In any event,
I doubt if a thin layer of clay (hardened or slightly viscous) would
have much of an effect either because of reflection or attenuation.
Best I can gather from John's description of his technique, it seems
that the clay serves as a very thin bedding layer to insure good contact
between the saddle, the transducer, and the bridge -- implying that
balancing problems are due to uneven acoustic coupling along the length
of the saddle. I would suspect that the clay would tend to "smush" out
when compressive force is applied and that it would become very very
thin in areas where there already was very good contact and coupling
from the saddle through the transducer to the bridge.
I read an article in Taylor's propaganda letter (Wood and Steel) a
couple years ago about the importance of fit between the saddle and the
bridge slot. What they claimed is that a very good flat fit along the
entire length of the saddle is not really very important. They also
claimed that good contact at the ends of the saddle (slightly concave
shape to the bottom of the saddle) was superior in sound transmission to
a saddle which had good contact in the middle but poor at the ends
(slightly convex shape). This seems to make intuitive sense to me. If
Taylor is correct in what they wrote, I think this is strong supportfor what John is suggesting.
Those areas along the saddle that have good acoustic coupling will keep
it as the clay layer will probably be very thin (if not absent) there.
Where the clay is less thin would be areas where there is less than
perfect contact between the layers and the clay will ameliorate that
poor coupling. This will help the B Band but probably not have
significant effect on the acoustic properties of the guitar itself.
All this technical mumbo-jumbo is, of course, just that. The proof lies
in the results and apparently John is getting good results without a lot
of dicking around. If I had a B-band with balance problems, I sure
would give it a shot--using the material that John suggests. Seems like
a low risk option.
Harold
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:31:05 -0600
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
Anyone notice how a bunch of good and useful information has finally been
generated from this thread?
I have.
No sarcasm directed at folks supporting B-band. No "making fun" of
products that "a certain individual" doesn't happen to use. No irrational
challenges or commentary.
Kind of nice, if you ask me.
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
From: John Zyla <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
Date: 17 Jul 1999 09:50:18 -0500
Organization: Zyla Guitars
On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:09:31 GMT, <hedberg@my-deja...> wrote:
<snip>
>Best I can gather from John's description of his technique, it seems
>that the clay serves as a very thin bedding layer to insure good contact
>between the saddle, the transducer, and the bridge -- implying that
>balancing problems are due to uneven acoustic coupling along the length
>of the saddle. I would suspect that the clay would tend to "smush" out
>when compressive force is applied and that it would become very very
>thin in areas where there already was very good contact and coupling
>from the saddle through the transducer to the bridge.
Harold has written a very good interpretation of what one hopes
should happen here. The clay must be able to "smush" out - in effect,
it performs the same function as shimming with paper, except it's
automatic, and much more "accurate" than paper shims. At least that's
my analysis of the process going on under there.
As I mentioned before, even though we can try our darndest and with
the best tools to make a saddle and a saddle slot bottom perfectly
flat and square, it's extremely difficult to achieve the desired
result. The bedding material simply "fixes" any miniscule error's
we've left.
Once again, an extremely thin layer is essential.
<snip>
>Harold
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
From: Nelson Foster <nelsonfoster@worldnet...>
Subject: Re: Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 12:10:30 -0400
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
I tried something a little different this morning with my second attempt at
applying clay to the B-Band setup. If you remember yesterday I posted that
the action at the 12th fret was a little higher than I liked.
So this morning I took it all apart - the clay was hardened from last
night - (it was relatively easy to get out with a toothpick and a can of
compressed air). I saw that the thickest (although thin) portions of clay
were underneath the B-Band.
I feel the problem with this guitar is the saddle and not the slot, so this
time I didn't put a bed underneath the pickup at all, and seated the b-band
in the slot. Then instead of using the toothpick to apply the clay, I used
my fingers and made 6 small balls of clay just a bit smaller than the width
of the slot. Then I put one ball of clay on top of the b-band where each
string would be when the saddle was in place. At the high E where I had a
drop out yesterday I put a little extra clay with the toothpick. Then I put
in the saddle and used the saddle to squash the balls across the slot. I
pulled out the saddle and looked and the clay had moved into the areas
between the string locations. I could see that it was very thin as some
spots of the b-band (where the clay hadn't migrated when squashed) could
still be seen.
Basically as Harold and John have pointed out - accurate and automatic
shimming.
I put a fresh set of strings on the guitar and tuned up. Action is now
right where I like it and the B-Band is balanced - volume is great and the
tone is all B-Band.
I'm going to leave this guitar as is and give it a couple of days to settle.
If the clay shrinks as it dries I might see some volume drop out on
individual strings but I don't think it can be improved upon right now.
Nelson (watching clay dry in Virginia Beach) Foster
John Zyla <<zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>> wrote in message
news:<379095eb.88238861@news...>...
: On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:09:31 GMT, <hedberg@my-deja...> wrote:
: <snip>
: >Best I can gather from John's description of his technique, it seems
: >that the clay serves as a very thin bedding layer to insure good contact
: >between the saddle, the transducer, and the bridge -- implying that
: >balancing problems are due to uneven acoustic coupling along the length
: >of the saddle. I would suspect that the clay would tend to "smush" out
: >when compressive force is applied and that it would become very very
: >thin in areas where there already was very good contact and coupling
: >from the saddle through the transducer to the bridge.
:
: Harold has written a very good interpretation of what one hopes
: should happen here. The clay must be able to "smush" out - in effect,
: it performs the same function as shimming with paper, except it's
: automatic, and much more "accurate" than paper shims. At least that's
: my analysis of the process going on under there.
:
: As I mentioned before, even though we can try our darndest and with
: the best tools to make a saddle and a saddle slot bottom perfectly
: flat and square, it's extremely difficult to achieve the desired
: result. The bedding material simply "fixes" any miniscule error's
: we've left.
:
: Once again, an extremely thin layer is essential.
:
:
: <snip>
:
: >Harold
: >
: >
: >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
: >Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
:
From: Nelson Foster <nelsonfoster@worldnet...>
Subject: Re: Amateur Installation of B-band or Dual Source
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:53:07 -0400
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
An hour ago I just made my first attempt at using John's technique in
installing a B-Band (which I included below from two earlier posts)
I used the same type of clay he used - a "fresh" brick of Amaco's Marblex
self hardening modeling clay (cost me 5.95) I found it in a craft store at a
local mall. This is a grey colored clay which I thought would be easier to
see while applying.
I applied it thin using a toothpick I had cut in half, using the thicker
part of the cut toothpick to apply a little clay at a time. A popsicle stick
was to thick for me to maneuver in the slot. But I still ended up applying
it a little thick I suspect. The action is just a tad to high at the 12th
fret for me to consider acceptable.
I tuned to standard and hooked the guitar up to the amp and watched the
LED's on the mixer - balanced all the way across except for the high E which
was about 30% lower. So I played a while and after about 15 minutes it had
balanced out! After 30 minutes more it hadn't changed any...It stayed
balanced! I am impressed with "the Zyla" technique and I'm very, very
happy with the result. The tone isn't affected much at all - and the clay is
still wet. I am going to wait till tomorrow and see what happens to the
tone in the morning after it dries a bit.
Then I'm going to take it apart and try again for lower action - John
mentioned apply thin and leave room around the sides of the slot. He's right
on there and I think I can do that better.
For 5.95 and less than an hours time! John your technique is fabulous!
grinning the big grin,
Nelson
For those just joining this thread - John's technique is described by him
below
<< start text >>
You've installed a great number of B-Bands, I understand, so you might
appreciate this. I love the B-Band, but I don't like balancing any
pickup using shims. It's too much of a hit or miss process.
Well, I got to thinking about the possible causes of balancing
problems, and it all boils down to, in one way or another, a failure
to completely and evenly transfer pressure from the top of the
saddle down through the "sandwich" structure of the pickup, to the
wood of the bottom of the saddle slot. From reading of other luthier's
experiences, it seems that just making sure your saddle is flat on the
bottom, and the slot is flat, doesn't always guarantee a trouble-free
balancing especially with the B-Band, because it's stiffness tends to
exaggerate the effect any (even miniscule) sloping of the saddle or
slot routing.
So, the task at hand was to devise a method by which one could ensure
a pretty much consistent transferance of pressure, without having to
go through the trial and error exercise of shimming. Shimming is fine,
it's just not an efficient use of the luthiers time, because results
aren't predictable.
I got to thinking about how fine target rifle barrels are "bedded" to
the stocks using fiberglass and other compounds, and this lead me to
consider using bedding in this application. Actually, I considered
this very early on, just had not decided on a bedding material.
I do a bit of ceramics work as a hobby, and am quite familiar with the
properties of various clays, and it hit me that this may be the
answer. The properties I wanted for a bedding material were:
1. The material must not be adhesive, except to itself - i.e. we do
not want to "glue" the sandwich together!
2. The material must conform to surfaces, but be hard - so that it
would transparently transfer pressure. A soft material would color
the sound. This would not be acceptable.
3. The material must have a fine grain structure so that it can be
used in a very thin layer so saddle height is not affected
appreciably. It's important to note here that the only function the
material must perform is to ensure even pressure transfer, so a thin
layer is all that is needed. Indeed, a *more than thin" layer would be
detrimental.
The material I decided to try is a self-hardening modeling clay. This
clay hardens without firing, is adhesive only to itself, and has a
very fine grain structure. Amoco "Mexican" or "Marblex" self hardening
clay is what I have used. This is available at art supply stores or
university book stores that have an art supplies section. It's
important to find a source that sells it once in a while, so you get a
reasonably fresh box. A 32 oz brick costs about $5.50 around here.
Enough to do about 30,000 saddles, or a few saddles and some neat
sculptures.
Here's the applcation method simplified. If you're interested and want
to try, I can go into more detail, let me know.
1. Lay down a very thin layer of bedding in the saddle slot, tamping
reasonably flat.
2. Install the pickup over the first layer.
3. Lay down another very thin layer on top of the pickup.
4. Install the saddle, and string the guitar, tuning to pitch.
5. The whole "sandwich" will cure in a day or so.
So there you have it.
<< end text >>
John Zyla
Alan asked some good questions here which John answered below - this really
adds detail to Johns process.
John Zyla <<zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>> wrote in message
news:<378e1bd2.26127173@news...>...
: On 15 Jul 1999 15:36:42 GMT, <dunwell.guitar@dorje...> wrote:
: Alan, I'll imbed some answers to your further questions below ..
:
:
: >John,
: >Good idea, I didn't realize that there were self-hardening clays,
perfect!
: >Some more questions:
: >- Can you please be a bit more specific as to what a "ver thin layer"
means in
: >aprox. inches or mm?
:
: As far as layer thickness, I haven't measured exactly, but it's just
: really really thin -think as thin as you can make it and get a solid
: layer (without holes). I'm estimating .25 mm or less. I actually leave
: a bit of open space around the perimeter (think the "walls" of the
: saddle slot) so that the stuff will squish out toward the walls as
: saddle pressure is applied. This ensures that I end up with a thinner
: layer than I could apply by hand.
:
:
: >- Do you just make a small roll and then tamp it in place, or do you try
to
: >flatten it ahead of time?
:
: I actually apply the clay with a Popsicle stick that I have trimmed a
: bit on one angle to make it pointier. Dab up a bit of the clay on the
: stick, then tamp into the slot. I tried the roll method and it seemed
: that I could not make a small enough roll - important to realize the
: layer is just as thin as you can possibly make it. I also use a
: technique where I get some of the clay on the end of the stick, then
: wipe it on the side of the slot - think of cleaning a peanut-butter
: knife on the edge of the jar - same idea. Then I tamp down into the
: slot.
:
: >- Have you ever had the clay squish by the pickup and bond the upper and
lower
: >layers together and if so, does it matter?
:
: Yes, in fact I consider it a good thing, but that's not a scientific
: estimation - just a feeling.
:
:
: >How good is the non-adhesive nature
: >of this clay, is the pickup separable from the clay afterwards?
:
: The clay when dried (hardened) can be broken easily in thin layers -
: so it's extremely non-adhesive. I've removed B-Bands from slots
: installed this way - just take the same Popsicle stick tool and
: lightly scrape an edge of the layer off on the free end of the pickup,
: then pull the pickup up and out. I use a dental probe to snag the end
: of the B-Band (these are great tools - ask your dentist for a couple
: of them - when they dull, the dentists throw them into a box in the
: back room (cleaned) - mine gave me a handful of them). Any remaining
: clay can be wiped off of the pickup between two dry fingers. A
: slightly damp paper towel is just effective too. One can clean the
: stuff out of the saddle slot with a dry toothbrush - the wood is
: porous so wiping only may leave a few tiny bits in there - hence the
: need for the soft toothbrush. . . Very non-adhesive as I say. There
: is zero permanent adhesion to anything of a smooth nature such as the
: B-Band element. In fact, the layers will tend to settle over time, -
: improving the contact layer - but if you remove the saddle you may
: have to re-do the clay installation if any of it falls out. I tape the
: saddle on to the bridge with a single strip of scotch tape if I've
: taken off all of the strings for any reason.
:
: >- What sort of total thickness do you end up with for the two layers and
the
: >pickup, ie: how much do you need to route?
:
: Again - I've not measured, it's less than one half millimeter. I
: don't like to route if I don't have to, and these installations added
: so little that I just took a bit off of the top of the saddle and
: re-profiled a bit. I probably wouldn't even have had to do that except
: I'm way too picky (anal?) and am fanatical about achieving low
: actions.
:
:
: I apologize for the long post.
:
: Grace and Peace,
:
: John
:
: >
: >Thanks for the info,
: >Alan
:
| B-band modeling clay install [9] |
|---|
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: B-band modeling clay install
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:25:56 -0600
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <7ooc8m$<1uc4@enews3...>>, <thissong@pclink...> (Tim
Helmen) wrote:
> I was thrilled a while back to stumble across John Zyla's "Self-hardening
> modeling clay" fix for balancing the b-band.
>
> I love the sound of the b-band ("sounds like my guitar, only louder"--what
> else can I say?) but have had balancing problems in my 1990 Taylor 712.
>
> So tonight I got some of the clay and went to work. I'll report back on the
> results.
>
> I did want to pass on my own little twist that I tried. (Apologies if
> someone else posted this as well.)
>
> I was unsure about being able to get a uniformly thin layer of clay tamped
> down into the saddle slot. And I remember John saying that THIN was key.
>
> So instead, to put a small amount of clay between layers of wax paper. I
> rolled it out (using the barrel of my handy x-acto knife) to a very and, I
> think, quite uniform layer.
>
> Then with a straight edge I sliced a line through the whole shebang more
> than the lenght of the saddle. I peeled back the top layer and made a
> parallel cut to leave me a strip just narrower than the saddle slot.
>
> I trimmed the strip to the length needed for the bed of the slot. I gently
> peeled back the wax paper on one end to leave the beginnings of a thin
> "shim" of the clay. I started this in one end of the slot, held it down
> carefully and gently peeled back the rest of the paper.
>
> I got about halfway through the slot before the clay finally broke off. But
> I was able to complete the job by adding shorter sections and matching them
> up to the previous "bed" by gently nudging them down the slot (x-acto
> again).
>
> So it wasn't a single complete strip of clay, but the final effect was
> pretty darn close, the difference probably made negligible by the
> "squishing" that the pressure of the strings will bring. And I'm sure it was
> more uniform and thin than I would have been able to get by packing it in
> there. I would say the thickness was equivalent to or less than the
> thickness of the b-band itself.
>
> My pickup was pretty springy,so trying to put a layer of top was difficult.
> I opted for leaving just the bottom layer so my result is
> wood/clay/pickup/saddle. I figure that may be enough, and I can always go
> back in if I have to.
>
> As I said, I'll let you know my results as far as balance and tone.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Tim Helmen
> http://www.pclink.com/thissong
Tim,
My brief experience using John's methods, on both sides, and then only
underneath the B-band required more clay on the "underneath only"
installation. Not a total of more clay, but simply more clay underneath
than if a "two-sided" method was used. This was on a very bad problem
guitar. Also, this instrument balanced perfectly immediately once I got
the thickness right. No waiting for the self-hardeneing clay to harden,
the guitar sounded the same acoustically, and when plugged in balanced
perfectly as soon as I strung it up. Your results should be just as
immediately testable.
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
From: John Zyla <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: B-band modeling clay install
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:09:31 GMT
Organization: remove "NOSPAM" from my address to reply
I think for the normal installation, that clay on both top and bottom
is appropriate initially. In this way, you are eliminating flatness
and/or contact area errors on both the saddle slot bottom and the
saddle bottom itself. You can eliminate the top layer, as Larry says,
but I have tried bottom only and had to re-do it with both, but have
never had to re-do an installation with both sides. So, in effect what
I'm saying is if you use bottom only, you're going to get there
through experimenting. My best success has been with both sides, a
very thin layer.
Once again, the function the clay performs is only to "even out" any
un-evenness in the contact area of the "sandwich" formed by the
saddle-slot-bottom, the pickup element, and the saddle bottom itself.
The whole reason this is necessary is it seems that we cannot
detarmine a perfect mating by simply making sure everything is flat.
There are imperceptible errors that show up as pickup-imbalance. The
clay eliminates those imperceptible errors.
grace and Peace,
John Zyla
On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:25:56 -0600, <abuse@127...> (Larry Pattis)
wrote:
>Tim,
>
>My brief experience using John's methods, on both sides, and then only
>underneath the B-band required more clay on the "underneath only"
>installation. Not a total of more clay, but simply more clay underneath
>than if a "two-sided" method was used. This was on a very bad problem
>guitar. Also, this instrument balanced perfectly immediately once I got
>the thickness right. No waiting for the self-hardeneing clay to harden,
>the guitar sounded the same acoustically, and when plugged in balanced
>perfectly as soon as I strung it up. Your results should be just as
>immediately testable.
>
>Larry Pattis
>
>Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
>
>Liberal Palette Records
>http://liberalpalette.com
>"Music Without Borders"
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: B-band modeling clay install
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:18:39 -0600
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <<37b33adf.24873028@reading...>>,
<ray@krisalisNOSPAM...> wrote:
> you might find that if the stuff hardens, it will hold the pickup down
> flat, and you could ( if you so desired ) add another thin layer later
> between the p/up and the saddle. Who knows - not me for one, but its
> an interesting idea and I'd be curious to know how it effects the
> tone.
>
> cheers
>
> ray.
Yes, just using clay on the bottom does indeed (after it hardens) hold the
B-band element in place. However, if you create a proper thickness of clay
underneath (and thereby achieve proper volume balance), there will be no
need to go back to add clay on top.
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: B-band modeling clay install
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:12:29 -0600
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <7oqajh$<1i5@enews4...>>, <thissong@pclink...> (Tim
Helmen) wrote:
> Well, I plugged it in when I got home from work and.....
>
> ...both e-strings are quite weak (pretty much the problem I had before). So
> I think I'll try to put a top layer on too, especially if I find the bottom
> layer holds the pickup down.
>
> I also wonder if I got it too thin and filled the slot too well. Perhaps
> there was not really anywhere for the clay to move?
>
> Stay tuned...(good advice for us under any circumstances, I guess)
>
> Grace and Peace to you as well.
>
> Tim
Tim,
I recommend scraping out the existing clay and starting all over, this way
it wil self-seat more accurately.
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
From: Nelson Foster <nelsonfoster@worldnet...>
Subject: Re: B-band modeling clay install
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:19:01 -0400
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Tim - this was exactly my problem without the clay - both E strings were
weak. I ended up adding only clay to the top of the b-band. (instead of
underneath the pickup. I was installing into a 96 Taylor 514-C - maybe your
bridge and saddle are shaped similarly.
Just a thought.
Nelson
Tim Helmen <<thissong@pclink...>> wrote in message
news:7oqajh$<1i5@enews4...>...
: Well, I plugged it in when I got home from work and.....
:
: ...both e-strings are quite weak (pretty much the problem I had before).
So
: I think I'll try to put a top layer on too, especially if I find the
bottom
: layer holds the pickup down.
:
: I also wonder if I got it too thin and filled the slot too well. Perhaps
: there was not really anywhere for the clay to move?
:
: Stay tuned...(good advice for us under any circumstances, I guess)
:
: Grace and Peace to you as well.
:
: Tim
:
: Http://www.pclink.com/thissong
:
:
: In article <<37b03eff.903413@news...>>, <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
: says...
: >
: >
: >I think for the normal installation, that clay on both top and bottom
: >is appropriate initially. In this way, you are eliminating flatness
: >and/or contact area errors on both the saddle slot bottom and the
: >saddle bottom itself. You can eliminate the top layer, as Larry says,
: >but I have tried bottom only and had to re-do it with both, but have
: >never had to re-do an installation with both sides. So, in effect what
: >I'm saying is if you use bottom only, you're going to get there
: >through experimenting. My best success has been with both sides, a
: >very thin layer.
: >
: >Once again, the function the clay performs is only to "even out" any
: >un-evenness in the contact area of the "sandwich" formed by the
: >saddle-slot-bottom, the pickup element, and the saddle bottom itself.
: >The whole reason this is necessary is it seems that we cannot
: >detarmine a perfect mating by simply making sure everything is flat.
: >There are imperceptible errors that show up as pickup-imbalance. The
: >clay eliminates those imperceptible errors.
: >
: >grace and Peace,
: >
: >John Zyla
: >
: >On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:25:56 -0600, <abuse@127...> (Larry Pattis)
: >wrote:
: >
: >>Tim,
: >>
: >>My brief experience using John's methods, on both sides, and then only
: >>underneath the B-band required more clay on the "underneath only"
: >>installation. Not a total of more clay, but simply more clay underneath
: >>than if a "two-sided" method was used. This was on a very bad problem
: >>guitar. Also, this instrument balanced perfectly immediately once I
got
: >>the thickness right. No waiting for the self-hardeneing clay to harden,
: >>the guitar sounded the same acoustically, and when plugged in balanced
: >>perfectly as soon as I strung it up. Your results should be just as
: >>immediately testable.
: >>
: >>Larry Pattis
: >>
: >>Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
: >>
: >>Liberal Palette Records
: >>http://liberalpalette.com
: >>"Music Without Borders"
: >
:
From: Tim Helmen <thissong@pclink...>
Subject: Re: B-band modeling clay install
Date: 11 Aug 1999 05:01:20 GMT
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
In article <7oqajh$<1i5@enews4...>>, <thissong@pclink...> says...
>
>Well, I plugged it in when I got home from work and.....
>
>...both e-strings are quite weak (pretty much the problem I had before).
So
>I think I'll try to put a top layer on too, especially if I find the bottom
>layer holds the pickup down.
>
>I also wonder if I got it too thin and filled the slot too well. Perhaps
>there was not really anywhere for the clay to move?
>
>Stay tuned...(good advice for us under any circumstances, I guess)
>
OK, tonight I tried again, following John's original method: tamping the
clay into the slot, and putting it below and above the saddle. (After the
bottom layer, I pressed the saddle down, and the pickup held very nicely in
the clay so I could do the top layer.)
After about 15 minutes the high e was weak, but another half hour later,
everything seemed to balance out fine across the board.
The action is now definitely too high, though. But that should be fairly
easy to deal with and worth the time now that I know I'll not have to
struggle with the balance issue.
Thanks again, John
Tim Helmen
http://www.pclink.com/thissong
From: John Zyla <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: B-band modeling clay install
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:16:35 GMT
Organization: remove "NOSPAM" from my address to reply
Pickup balancing (unfortunately) is not brand-specific. I wish it
were!
John Zyla
On 11 Aug 1999 15:00:18 GMT, <scuss98871@aol...> (SCuss98871) wrote:
>I do think this is primarily a Taylor problem. I have a 714 and it was a right
>royal pain to get it to balance. (Totally reversing the saddle so the
>compensation sat under the A string worked like a charm, much to the chargrin
>of the guitar tech!) Anyway, he said it is because of the string angle on
>taylor's bridge pins....
>
>Steve (did that make any sense?) Cuss
From: Bob Dorgan <d77737@epix...>
Subject: Re: B-band modeling clay install
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:20:49 GMT
jtougas wrote:
>
> On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:39:09 GMT, john bj <<desert2000@my-deja...>>
> wrote:
>
> > <scuss98871@aol...> (SCuss98871) wrote:
> >>snip
> > They need to
> >figure out a way to maintain the pick-up's fidelity while making it less
> >sensitive to minute installation variances, especially if they're making
> >it difficult to use in all models of a very popular brand.
> >
> >peace and joy,
> >jbj
>
> I see a day where every box of B-band pickups comes with a small
> package of modelling clay... and every buyer scratches his head in
> confusion until they read the instructions!
>
> jtougas
Let's clear something up here.
ALL undersaddle transducers can have balancing problems. This is not
unique to b-band. Ask any tech who has installed a fair number of pick
ups, and you'll find that they have had their problems balancing several
brands.
Bob Dorgan
From: <mikecloud@my-deja...>
Subject: Re: B-band modeling clay install
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 01:40:29 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
I have a couple of questions for those with experience using self-
hardening modeling clay to balance a B-Band:
1. Are you talking about balance problems you're having with a 1999
version of the element, or an older version? The pre-'99 version gave
me fits in my Taylor 12 string; but, the '99 version fixed the problem
without shims or clay. Also, for what it's worth, both the pre-'99,
and the '99 work great in my Collings SJ--with the '99 version having a
hotter overall output.
2. Does the clay make quiet strings louder, or does it make overly
loud strings quieter, or does it do both? When I had the pre-'99
element in my 12 string, I could get an acceptable balance using shims
(as many as four layers of "Post-It" under quiet strings--usually the
outside strings [E, B, and E]), but I found the shims mainly decreased
the volume of adjacent loud strings, and therefore lowered overall
output and in my opinion signal to noise. This is the main reason I
switched to the '99 version. The output was closer to the level of my
Collings, and the signal to noise ratio improved. Is the clay
detrimental to signal to noise?
Thanks.
Mike
| B-Band Balance: Zyla Method [2] |
|---|
From: john bj <desert2000@my-deja...>
Subject: B-Band Balance: Zyla Method
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:31:37 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
After lamenting about balance problems on the B-Band installed into my
1978 Martin D-35 earlier this year, I tried the self-hardening modelling
clay method John Zyla posted recently. Simply put - on the second try
it worked perfectly. If it 'goes bad' in the future, like the paper
shim method I had used previously, I'll be sure to post a report.
Here's some thoughts and details on what I did:
On my first trip to the hobby store I mistakenly bought non-hardening
clay rather than self-hardening clay. Fortunately I reviewed John's
post before opening things up. I bought the Amaco Marblex clay John
recommended. It cost $7.30 for five pounds, which, according to John's
calculations for two pounds, should be good for over 75,000 B-Band
installations, or a few installations and some sculptures. I think it
could do more. So if you pay for round trip shipping, I'll be happy to
try and fix the B-Band balance in your guitars - of course cure times
may vary by as much as 6 months in the case of very high end guitars...
;-)
My balance problem had been a hot high E string, after my first try at
the Zyla Method it was the B that was hot and both Es had virtually
disappeared. I had put in too much clay, so my action was high, but I
didn't see how that should affect the balance. So I loosened the
strings enough to get the bridge pins and ball ends out. What I found
as I removed saddle and the clay were little voids and cracks. BTW -
the clay's box says it shrinks as it dries, which I thought would make
removing it simpler, but (a) it doesn't shrink all that much, and (b) it
gets into the wood grain pretty easily.
On my second attempt I worked on the "VERY thin" layer concept John
tried to communicate but I was too clutzy and hurried to accomplish. I
got a good, thin piece by rolling the clay on a piece of wax paper which
was taped to an old marble chess board (hard and flat was what I was
going for). I concentrated on keeping it at a constant diameter along
its whole length. When it got much thinner than toothpick size it would
start to break off, so I figured that would have to do.
Upon examining the clay, though, I noticed there were still fold lines
and slight voids. So I added a TINY bit of water - like <1/4 of a DROP.
To get <1/4 drop, lightly dampen a paper towel, touch it with your forefinger and gently slide it up and down the sliver of clay. More water
turns the clay into a liquid. And use a smooth part of your finger
rather than the tip - calluses catch and break the clay. Here's another
hint: make the piece longer than your saddle slot so you can cut it to
size along a constant diameter section, leaving off the inevitable taper
you get at its ends when you roll it.
This first layer goes under the B-Band. I laid it in the slot, tamped
it somewhat flat using the saddle. Then I smoothed it out by dipping
the rounded corner/side of the saddle in water, dabbing it almost dry
and lightly running it across the clay as it lay in the slot.
I noticed some separation in the B-Band itself between its layers for
about a 1cm section on the bass side of center. But since I was sure I
was way outside warranty territory, I proceeded to carefully clean off
the old clay using water and a paper towel and then gently lay it down
in the slot over the first layer of clay. It seemed to hold together
fine when squeezed lightly.
I repeated the process for a roll of clay and laid it on top of the
B-Band, tamping it down and smoothing it with the saddle as before. I
cleaned off the bridge and saddle, reinstalled the saddle, stuck the
string ends and bridge pins back in and tuned up the guitar. The action
was back to acceptable. After the one day cure time on the guitar
stand, I plugged it in and got a nice even balance right off. No EQ
needed at all. In fact, I had to turn down the gain from where I
had it previously because every string was now equally hot.
One serious note on cure time: local humidity here in Tucson is under
20%. The clay probably cured quicker than one day for me - I had tried
to make both rolls of clay simultaneously, but in the 15 minutes before
I got to the second layer, it had started to harden and broke off in
brittle pieces when I picked it up. I had to make a fresh one before
proceeding. (don't worry - I keep my guitar interior 40%-60% with a
soundhole humidifier)
So there you have it. The Zyla Method for the clay-challenged.
peace and joy,
jbj
--
(e-mails should be sent to desert2000 @ NOSPAM yahoo.com)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
From: John Zyla <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: B-Band Balance: Zyla Method
Date: 25 Aug 1999 22:11:01 -0500
Organization: Zyla Guitars
One comment I would make, is to definitely watch if you add any water.
Clay is not just a suspension, it's a compound, and water can change
the properties of it. Not to mention, I have NO idea what a "wet" clay
would do to a pickup, but I suspect it might not be pretty!
John Zyla
| b-band install [4] |
|---|
From: Tim Helmen <thissong@pclink...>
Subject: b-band install
Date: 29 Aug 1999 04:05:31 GMT
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
You might remember I was working on installing my b-band with the Zyla clay
method. This is in my Taylor 712.
I never was able to get a good balance using the strict Zyla method of
laying down a bed below and above the pickup.
So I tried a modification someone else had posted, making small balls of
clay and putting one directly under each string. I used this on top of the
pickup, with the pickup itself right on the wood of the saddle slot--no clay
underneath.
This gets me perfect balance every time. I only have to adjust the size of
the clay balls to get the action where I want it.
I theorize that this works better for me because with the method of laying a
bed in the whole slot, there's not enough room for the clay to balance out,
even leaving space along the side of the slot. The result is six
unconnected clay "pedestals" one under each string, formed by the specific
pressure of that string.
So far so good. But now I am having another problem, maybe related to this
method, maybe not.
The pickup picks up the body resonance. That's part of getting the sound of
the wood, I realize, but this is extreme. I get body feedback at what
should be reasonable volumes, with the strings damped. It's really
completely unacceptable.
I have previously gotten a good sound, with lots of gain before feedback,
with this same guitar, using tape for shims (no clay). But that was with a
saddle a shop made for me that had too sharp angles and I constantly broke
strings. So I made my own more gently-curved saddle, which I have only been
able to balance with the clay.
Any ideas? Any one else experienced serious body resonance issues with the
b-band? (The pickup is not looping down to touch the body inside or
anything like that--I've checked that out.)
Tim Helmen
From: john bj <desert2000@my-deja...>
Subject: Re: b-band install
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:06:07 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Hi Tim,
Two thoughts:
First, even though you say the pick-up isn't touching the body, it's
worth another check, especially if everything else is perfect. The
B-Band instructions mention possible body resonance difficulties (and
solutions) with smaller body guitars such as your 712. If you don't
have the instructions, you can get it off their web site
(http://www.b-band.com/).
Another possibility is that your clay pedestals are TOO small and are
therefore concentrating the saddle pressure onto a relatively small
area of the pick-up. The instructions illustrate a saddle modification,
similar to the Fishman Cleartone, that essentially ends up with six
'pedestals' touching on the pick-up. The thing to notice is that there
is very little separation between the pedestals, so the total pressure
from the saddle is still spread out over almost the same surface area.
So, you might check the spacing of your clay and, if it's not there
already, try getting to 1 mm or less.
Hope this helps.
peace and joy,
jbj
(e-mails should be sent to desert2000 @ NOSPAM yahoo.com)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
From: Tim Helmen <thissong@pclink...>
Subject: Re: b-band install
Date: 31 Aug 1999 01:12:29 GMT
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
I did try to follow the original specs closely, but the truth is, I didn't
get balance even close.
I do wonder about the consistency of the clay I've got. My sense from
reading of others' experiences is that some have got fresher batches that
have more "flow" to them.
At any rate, I did try again with putting a bottom layer down first, and
that seems to have helped. I'm guessing that when I had just the pedestals
and nothing underneath the pickup, the pickup may have had just enough play
to vibrate itself when the body moved, since between the pedestals it wasn't
really held down.
Now with a bottom layer, the pickup is set into the bed, and can't vibrate
on its own.--Just a theory. The bottom bed does seem to help.
As far as the clay consistency, that's pretty hard to quanify over the
net...
From: John Zyla <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: b-band install
Date: 30 Aug 1999 22:22:04 -0500
Organization: Zyla Guitars
You are right about clay consistency. It should be very pliable, like
chewing gum (not bubble gum). Of course, it's not sticky. One person
with whom I have corresponded said the first box of clay he bought
was obviously very old, it was so hard he had to scrape it off.
The idea is to get the whole thing together (the sandwich) before the
clay starts to harden, and string up to pitch, so that the downward
pressure of the strings on the saddle does the final "squishing" of
the clay, and - if all of the right magic occurs in there, the thing
will be perfectly balanced. I actually recommend that folks do a
practice run or two, just loading the slot, then putting in the saddle
- without the pickup element, then pressing down to compress the clay,
let it harden (a couple hours) the pull up the saddle and look at the
results. It takes only a few times to get good at it. The hardened
clay comes right out (a tiny bit will stay in the grain of the wood,
and this is actually a plus). I realize that a person doing this on
their own guitar may consider doing practice runs a bit of overkill,
but it's the same thing a tech would do to get his technique down, and
the technique is quite repeatable, and very forgiving, unlike paper
shims. In fact, as I've said, that's the whole point of clay over
paper shims - the repeatability. Good luck!
John Zyla
On 31 Aug 1999 01:12:29 GMT, <thissong@pclink...> (Tim Helmen) wrote:
>I did try to follow the original specs closely, but the truth is, I didn't
>get balance even close.
>
>I do wonder about the consistency of the clay I've got. My sense from
>reading of others' experiences is that some have got fresher batches that
>have more "flow" to them.
>
>At any rate, I did try again with putting a bottom layer down first, and
>that seems to have helped. I'm guessing that when I had just the pedestals
>and nothing underneath the pickup, the pickup may have had just enough play
>to vibrate itself when the body moved, since between the pedestals it wasn't
>really held down.
>
>Now with a bottom layer, the pickup is set into the bed, and can't vibrate
>on its own.--Just a theory. The bottom bed does seem to help.
>
>As far as the clay consistency, that's pretty hard to quanify over the
>net...
>
| Gave up on the B-Band.... |
|---|
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: Gave up on the B-Band....
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:25:38 -0600
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <3iNR3.1911$<49.165232@news...>>, "Jay Adair"
<oja(no-spam-please)@flash.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm very curious, Jay, did you ever simply try the "John Zyla not-patented
> > method" using a smidgen of self-hardening clay in the saddle slot?
> >
> > My ONE very difficult experience with a B-band (out of 40 installations)
> > was cured in 5 minutes with John's trick....and I had spent maybe 5-6
> hours
> > screwing around with shims on this guitar.
> >
> > Larry Pattis
> >
> Larry,
>
> I started to do that very thing, but the more posts on the subject I read,
> the more intimidating the whole process seemed. And I had to ask myself,
> "Jay, after your completely screw this thing up with hardening clay, THEN
> what will you do?" I chickened out and went with the Fishman. You have to
> realize, my eyesight is going, I have trouble buttering bread without
> getting it on me, what was my chances of getting the right amount of clay
> into that tiny slot.....
>
> I still love the B-Band tone....when I can get what it was meant to produce.
> But in my experience, the Fishman is easier for clabbers like myself to
> manage.
> Besides, after 16 years riding a fire engine and those bloody sirens and air
> horns, my hearing is nothing to brag about....
>
> Jay (approaching tone deaf in steadily increasing increments) Adair
It is really too bad that you didn't go the final step, or perhaps find
some repair person to give it a shot. The clay is not only quite easy to
work with, it is easy to remove, even after it has hardened. It also has
had NO effect on the acoustic tone on my Traugott, which was the guitar I
was having such difficulty with simply using shims.
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
| Norman: B-band Explanation and more [2] |
|---|
From: John Zyla <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: Norman: B-band Explanation and more
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 18:42:47 GMT
Organization: remove "NOSPAM" from my address to reply
This version takes care of misspellings (I hope all of them) in the
original post. I should have spell checked with the machine instead of
my brain (especially at midnight!)
++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++
First, let me preface with what my original theory is on why under
saddle pickups in general have balance problems. It seems, after
careful observation, that the problem arises not from the composition
(or construction) of any particular pickup, but from the uneven
distribution of pressure through the saddle-pickup-saddle-slot
sandwich. The source of such uneven distribution of pressure ends up
being an uneven-ness of pressure across the whole length of the
saddle. This maybe caused either by a slightly non-planar saddle slot
bottom or a non-planar saddle bottom. This effect is especially
most prominent with solid saddles, because the rigidity of the saddle
will
tend to ensure that any hill or valley in the "sandwich" stays put,
therefore the problem is persistent. Since the B-Band is a rather
stiff and sensitive element, the effect is more pronounced, when it is
present. Compounding the problem is that the B-Band is quite
sensitive, and while this contributes to what many consider to be a
more natural sounding signal, it also magnifies any imbalance
(imbalance that may be overlooked with a less sensitive saddle
element.) Slotted saddles in the style of the Fishman Cleartone ™
address this problem by adding some flex in the saddle itself, thus
helping even out pressure, only where needed. Think of an array of
automobile leaf springs, all in a row. Similar effect.
A discussion of the clay bedding method.
I began to think about solutions to this problem, since it is near
impossible to get flatness within tolerances needed to achieve perfect
balance. What I needed was a way to get perfectly even pressure along
the saddle element, in relation to the pressure exerted by each
string, regardless of whether the saddle slot or saddle bottom was
planar. I thought of how high quality target rifles use fiberglass
bedding
to solve similar problems. What I needed was a bedding material to
fill
microscopic, or near microscopic hills and
valleys in the saddle bottom or saddle slot bottom. Some of the
requirements for bedding material should be :
1. The material should be fine grained, to be able to fill minute
imperfections in
flatness of the saddle slot bottom, and between the layers of the
saddle-pickup-element-saddle-slot sandwich.
2. The material should not be adhesive to anything but itself - i.e.
a saddle
using the bedding material should be easily removable, as should the
pickup element.
3. The material should be inexpensive, easily applied, and not color
the sound of the guitar in any perceptible way.
It ends up, after much thought, I determined that some type of clay
would be perfect, because it
Has properties that meet all three criteria. This material was tested
in several guitars, and
balance problems disappeared.
Potential problems:
I saw some potential problems. First, it is difficult to form a thin
layer of the clay - and takes practice.
Ideally the layer should be thin enough so that you do not have to
modify the saddle to preserve
your original saddle height, yet still fulfill its function of
eliminating pressure variances in the matrix..
Second, the clay will tend to powder over time. This is a good thing
if the saddle fits in the slot relatively tightly, because it will
fill imperfections even better.
The problem is, if there are even small gaps on either end of the
saddle, some of
the clay will escape, and the element will go out of balance.
This has indeed proven to be a valid concern. My own guitar has a
saddle that has about
1/32 inch leeway on each side of the saddle, in the slot. This was
enough for some of the clay, as it powdered over time, to escape.
Therefore, my low E string went loud. Ack! An opportunity for more
research!
So I got my thinking cap, various materials, and some good old
brainstorming going. I have tried adding a bit of polymer to the clay,
so it will not powder. This was successful, but I still had the thick
bedding material, making it difficult to form a consistently and
thin layer
so as to not affect clearance (saddle height) appreciably.
I looked to other materials.
The methodology I have come to find gives my best most lasting
results, is to take the same modeling clay, and wet it to the
consistency of very thick cream. Stir to get it smooth with absolutely
no
lumps.
I then add Durham's Water Putty (you can pick this up the hardware
stores), to the mixture. This product, when used alone, dries to very
hard
form, yet is still largely non-adhesive except to itself. Leaving the
clay in the
formula here gives a little bit less hard product when cured. The clay
also has
a finer particle size so it's still contributing to the function of
the layer
I keep adding the Durham's until I have a solution that is
a bit runnier than toothpaste, Ultra Brite in particular (grin).
Now, we have a bedding solution that is thin enough that it will still
fill gaps, but is much easier to "squish" out around the pickup
element - achieving a very thin bet adequate layer. It is also easier
to apply. I apply it to the bottom of the
saddle slot - it's much easier than the old method, and lay the piezo
or electret
element back down on top of the layer, then slosh a layer on top of
the element. Stick in the
saddle and push down, the excess should squeeze out. Wipe the excess
off, and string up the instrument to pitch. Let sit a day (probably
not necessary, but let's be safe.)
Well, you ask, what are my results. The Durham's water putty mixed
with
clay makes it set up a little bit harder, enough that the clay does
not tend to powder over time, hence the thing does not go out of
balance after a while if you've a loose saddle (note, this is not a
problem on a tight fitting saddle . You still get the benefit - easy
to remove, etc.
You may ask, what are the results. Again, perfect, balance, and so far
(a few weeks now) no balance problems, the sandwich seems quit
intact. Sounds beautiful.
Best Regards.
John Zyla
From: John Zyla <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: Norman: B-band Explanation and more
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:24:38 GMT
Organization: remove "NOSPAM" from my address to reply
I need to add an addendum to my preceding post. The B-Bands I am
working with are original flavor. Heikki meant to send me a few of the
new ones to test, but inadvertently sent the old ones. I understand
that the new B-Band does not have balancing problems, or if it does,
they are minimal and easier to soft. I cannot comment on this.
My methods are to be considered "balancing methodology", rather than a
"kludge" fix that is specifically applicable to the B-Band. The
methodology should be considered analogous to using post-it note
pieces, or shims, and is valid for any under-saddle pickup that is
proving top be a problem vis a vis string to string balance, not just
B-Band elements.
I must also mention that my methodology is not endorsed by EMF in any
way, nor has EMF contributed to the methodology. I do not receive
monetary compensation from EMF, nor am I an EMF endorser, though I do
personally recommend these pickups.
It is my hope that the methodology - or at least an understanding of
the methodology, which could be applied to other ideas, is of help
the anyone who is having problems balancing any under-saddle pickup.
John Zyla
12/3/99
| B-Band Definitive for John [2] |
|---|
From: <firestick@my-deja...>
Subject: B-Band Definitive for John
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 02:34:14 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Hi John,
This is pretty long but I think it is important.
It is a fairly comprehensive narrative of my B-
Band experiments that encapsulates somewhat that
which others have written along with much that I
have not seen in print. Print it out and read it,
at your leisure, in the bathroom or wherever your
private reading haven might be. .It confirms much
of what you have written and goes further. (I
will post the complete journey on one of my
websites (googalies.com -a guitar cloth) in the
near future).
I first read your threads about a month ago when
I started on the B-Band odyssey. After much
research on various pickups available for my
1996 Taylor 714. I decided on the B-Band. I
spoke with Tony Reirdon at First Quality Music
and Pekka in LA (the B-band artist rep). Both
made the installation sound simple and effective.
I had read so many threads concerning B-Band
string balancing issues, and the love/hate
relationship evident there, that I aggressively
broached this subject with them as well as Mike
Doolin of Doolin Guitars and my guitar tech
(Steve Spalding (who was destined to at least
drill the hole for me and mount the electronics).
I have been experimenting with acoustic pickups
for nearly 30 years and was more than a little
skeptical and having tried EVERYTHING from Barcus
to Frapp to Lawrence to Fishman. Never satisfied,
I began using Takamine Guitars as their sound, to
an audience, was far superior to anything (pickup
wise) installed on higher quality guitars. I sold
off many Martins, Guilds and the like as
professionally unusable and the Takamine was
easily replaceable for a relative low cost, were
I to break one.
I tell you this to accentuate my 40 yearbackground of making a living with acoustic
instruments and to assure you that I have done
the scientific rigor. Obviously the B-Band seemed
like the panacea I had sought for so many years
but yes, I was skeptical.
I bought the pickup w/mike from FQMS, gave it and
my 714 to my guitar tech/luthier for installation
and the next day picked it up. Steve had
installed about half a dozen and was thrilled
with the sound. It did sound pretty good in his
shop but when I got home I went into my studio,
plugged it into one of my main boards and
auditioned it using head phones. Not only was the
sound plastic (quacky I guess) but the string
balance was horrible. (I fingerpick with thin
National plastic thumbs and brass Dunlop
fingers). The E-6th was almost invisible. I
removed the strings, lifted the saddle and looked
at the pickup. It looked OK so I restrung and
this time the E6 was better but the G3 was light,
again almost invisible in the sonic spectrum. In
both cases the B string and to some degree the
E1st were too loud, much like an old Bill
Lawrence mag pickup of days gone by. (I had
successfully balanced those old mag pickups by
placing thin strips of metal over the B and E
string areas of the pickups to deaden those
particular string sounds- You see I have tried
nearly everything including electric guitar
stings ). After playing with the saddle pressure
(literally pushing down or pulling up on the
areas of string volume deficiency I was able to
get different balancing scenarios but never
perfect. (Contrary to what most people seem to
think in the thousands of threads I have read
about under saddle pickups in general, the louder
strings usually result from less pressure on the
pickup at the particular string location than
what would seem obvious - that is, more pressure
- hence the trough or channel hollowing method
espoused by some for improving the B-band and
other undersaddles.) I would be glad to discuss
at length all of the tricks I have learned and
tried over the years but back to the B-Band
installation.
I called Steve and told him honestly the balance
and sound were poor and mentioned that I had
tested using headphones to truly isolate the
pickup sound from ambient guitar and room
acoustics. He had not tested that way. I called
Pekka and Toni and found they had not tested that
way either. Now almost any pickup can sound good
in a room where at least part of what you are
hearing is coming from the acoustic sound of the
instrument mixed with the pickup sound. All B-
Bands should be auditioned and balanced with
headphones.
I had bought a Takamine LTD 98 the week before
expressly for the dual purpose of having a
similar size backup stage ax and to compare the B-
Band/Taylor combo. The Tak killed the Taylor/B-
Band sound. Going through a Digitech Artist 2120
tube preamp the Tak soared while the Taylor B-
Band sound like a cheap guitar( I must admit, as
humbly as possible, that I know how to get rid of
99% of transducer quack and plasticity using good
preamps and processing. I am always amazed at how
bad top performers manage to achieve such a poor
sound from acoustic/electric pickups. (Rod
Stewart's guitarist for instance on the Unplugged
album or most acoustic electrics you hear on
Austin City Limits (Monte Montgomery being a
dramatic exception) and nearly all live
performances by acoustic electric players who
should know better) So I know how to maximize the
sound of an acoustic electric and again, that is
why I have been using Takamine for over 20 years
for stage work.
Now if you think this is becoming a Takamine ad
you are dead wrong and should read on.
I was NOT finished with the Taylor/ B-Band. I
rarelyr give up and am a pain-in-the-ass
perfectionist. I went back to the threaded
discussions, remembering your comments about
using clay for a pickup bed. I had used similar
materials on Yamaha APX's (they had an under
saddle and two transducer pickups attached to the
soundboard underside and at times could be
tinkered with to produce a pretty good sound. I
owned three and every one was weirdly different,
so yes, I experimented to the point that I
understood how to best adjust the transducer
positioning and found that modeling clay worked
far better than the adhesive they factory
installed in transmitting acoustic energy. This
was 8 years ago and I payed little attention to
the kind of clay. I got it out of my girlfriends
sculpting studio but made no note of the brand.
However, when rolled thin and allowed to dry this
clay, when held up in front of your mouth, (4
inches say) really vibrated when I would hum at
it. (I guess I have too much time on my hands but
I truly have pursued these issues in a
scientific, albeit anal, method. I also enjoy
humming at clay).
So when I read your suggestions about clay
embedding I knew you might be on to something,
because not only was string balancing the issue,
I found the overall sound of the B-Band to be
plastic and artificial.(at this point I must say
that, nonetheless, there was SOMETHING delicate,
sweet, and potentially beautiful about the b-band
sound, a hint perhaps of what the possibilities
were) But the combo of bone (plastic, tusk,
micarta, whatever), wood (saddle slot), and
pickup even optimally fitted, was not good enough
to rival the Takamine sound!
I braved holiday sales at a local art supply
store (there were 500 women in a 2000 square foot
shop and I was nearly overcome by fumes of
estrogen) and found MarbleX and Amoco Mexican. I
choose the MarbleX because it looked more like
the clay I had used many years before on the
Yamaha's and the Mexican was quite a bit firmer
(drier perhaps). I rolled the clay with a good
rolling pin to flatten it and then cut strips
which I rolled again to get even flatter. Took
all of ten minutes. I removed the saddle, placed
thin strips of clay in the slot, tamped down to
insure evenness, placed the b-band on top of the
clay, and added the recommended thin layer on top
of the pickup strip, tamped a little more to
evenly distribute (the clay must be moist and
since it dries quickly (a few minutes) after
being rolled thin you must proceed at a fairly
rapid pace), replaced the saddle, strings and
plugged it in. Using the same preamp settings as
Takamine I put on the headphones a came as close
to having a sonic orgasm as I can remember. Not
only was the sound as good or better than the
Tak, I was getting this sound while playing my
beloved Taylor. AND the most stunning revelation
was that the pickup was now 40% hotter than it
had been without the clay. The clay not only
improves the balance but adds power and
efficiency to the pickup so that it matches (in
volume) the Takamine with the AccuraAcoustic
preamp at full volume. That hint of sweetness
aforementioned with the B-Band was now fully
evident. No noise, no hum, no adjusting saddle
pressure. Simply a beautiful powerful sound. As
mentioned before, all acoustic electric pickups
benefit from proper processing, even the Tak and
through the headphones, unprocessed the AE
character of the B-band is still slightly present
but once processed properly, (a little chorus,
reverb, delay, very slight compression) the sound
is breathtaking.
Needless to say I was thrilled. So I took the
whole damn thing apart and started over. I wanted
to see if I had been lucky. I repeated the
procedure from square one and obtained EXACTLY
the same result. I am hardly a craftsman and
though very artistically demanding and a sonic
perfectionist, I still always managed to get glue
on the windows of my model airplanes and do in no
way consider myself a meticulous hand worker.
That same day The Fishman Clear tone saddle thatTony at FQMS had recommended as a possible cure
for the Taylor balancing problem arrived so I
took it all apart again (each time I carefully
scraped the clay out of the slot and off of the
pickup - it come off pretty easily but care must
be taken when removing the pickup as I was to
find out later that day). I lightly sanded the
Cleartone Saddle so it would just fit, tighter
than the Taylor saddle (the Taylor saddle was
always loose enough to wiggle just slightly and
though it may be a problem without the clay, with
the clay it made no difference). Restrung, the
Taylor with Cleartone was better than the
original (although the actual acoustic sound
suffered somewhat) setup without clay but not
much. Perhaps a bit more powerful than the
original but string balance was still a problem
and very slight pressure on the saddle would
change the balance of each string but never
anything usable. Needless to say I once again
performed the clay method using the old original
saddle and once again the sound was perfect.
Nailed every time.
At this point a WARNING for those performing this
very simple installation enhancement (I say
enhancement as I would hesitate to drill a hole
in my Taylor and the electronic and placement of
internal components/jackpin is best done by
someone who is used to working in the confined
space of a guitar interior and with the delicate
materials used in fine guitars).
OOPS! The last time I removed the b-band pickup
from the bridge slot (after the Cleartone saddle
experiment) I inadvertently lifted (using a sharp
small toothpick) the top layer of the pickup and
separated it from the bottom layer exposing the
silver colored interior. The pickup strip is
actually 2 layers pressed together (I doubt it is
glued as it came apart too easily). Horrified, I
retreated to the studio to test the damage and
found both strips (top and bottom) were sonically
active so I carefully repeated the clay method
installation, making as sure as possible that the
separated b-band strips lay evenly on top of each
other. The result was every bit as good as any of
the other attempts. Thankfully b-bands are
forgiving to at least the degree I screwed up but
I recommend care in handling the pickup, no
bending or stressing and when removing/prying
from the slot, be very careful not to separate
the composite layers.
Also during one of my original experiments I
wanted to see the result of removing strings and
saddle completely and then reinstalling same on a
now dry pickup/clay sandwich. The sound suffered
somewhat. Although the balance was still fine,
the power and efficiency of the pickup and some
of its beauty was reduced. I think that as long
as the saddle is not removed, even if the stings
must be removed to change batteries or to
reposition the internal condenser mike, you will
not lose sound sufficiently to abort stage
performance ability but it is better to minimize
(as with any acoustic electric) removal of all
strings simultaneously.
One last note: I have still not found an ideal
location for the condenser mike. Although it is
obviously a high quality mike, it adds only
minimally if at all to the pickup. I will do more
experimenting in the future but at this time I
would not recommend its necessity (given the
beauty of the pickup alone, the simplicity of
plugging a standard, as opposed to a balanced
(stereo) guitar chord into the guitar and the
lack of added expense for either a stereo Y cable
or some kind of preamp splitter like the Fishman
Pocket Blender - all of which I bought and will
probably not use).
I would like to thank you for setting me on the
right track (or at least paving the way as I
should have, no doubt, eventually tried some kind
of clay). The B-Band is as potentially
revolutionary as claimed and can solve (with
proper processing) the problem of sharing a great
guitar's sound with an audience. However be wary
of those who would tell you the pickup sounds
great with the standard factory recommended
installation unless they have demo'd it through
headphones. I have listened to a number of
Martins and other instruments with the B-band
that the owners assured me sounded incredible.
Few even minimally passed the headphone test
without the clay. I do not see how the
saddle/pickup/wood slot combination alone can
possible sound as full and warm without the added
insulating acoustic properties of the clay. I
will cc this to Pekka and Tony and especially B-
band in Finland as I know they are truly
dedicated to solving the ago old problem of
acoustic guitar amplification.
Thank you for all and most notably for the time
you have spent that helped so many. You may share
any or all of this as you wish.
Doug
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
From: John <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: B-Band Definitive for John
Date: 21 Dec 1999 23:39:07 -0600
Organization: Newscene Public Access Usenet News Service (http://www.newscene.com/)
Bob,
I have not, but I believe other folks have.
About shims shifting - this reminds me to direct attention to a post I
made a few weeks back in which I indicated that I had had one clay
installation fail - after a month or so. Seems that if the saddle is
loose in the slot, and the clay powders, some of it can escape, and
leave voids, thus the bedding will fail. The way I solved this was to
add a component to the clay that made it a bit harder, so it will not
powder over time - to any appreciable extent. Note - my original
thoughts were that powdering would be a benefit, and indeed it would -
if the powdering could be contained. The problem is when it escapes.
I also want to mention that, in reference to this clay thing, I
arrived at the application through thought experiments, and empirical
experiment, but I regard the clay bedding technique as "one"
solution, and surely not the optimum. It is my hope that the pickup
manufacturers will play around with the concept, and come up with
something better. I would like to see something that comes in a tube,
about the size of a bicycle-tube-patching kit adhesive tube, that the
installer squeezes out into the spot, lays the pickup down, and
squeezes a bit more on top of the element. Nice and easy. I think
whatever substance is used, should perhaps have the properties I
thought might be of important - - my choice of clay was that it had
properties I wanted - those being:
1) It is adhesive only to itself, thus easily removable.
2) The clay has a small enough (actually extremely very small)
particle size that it efficiently fills hills and valleys of an uneven
saddle bottom or saddle slot bottom, or combination of both.
3) clay would not color the sound of the guitar at all, in such a thin
later, there is effectively no impedance change that is a result of
the clay. I had originally thought that some type of polymer would be
better, but I worried about impedance effects coloring the sound.
One more interesting comment on this - an aside - I actually use clay
bedding in all of the saddles I install now, whether there is a pickup
in the picture or not! Seems that I get a better (just perceptible -
with the naked ear) balancing of sound - mainly because I am
transferring energy from the saddle bottom to the bridge (and from
there to the top) more efficiently. Sort of like gluing the saddle in,
except with clay (or actually the new mixture of clay and Durhams
Water Putty) the saddle is removable (unlike a glued saddle ! Ugh!)
because the clay is not adhesive.
Bob, Have a very happy Christmas.
John
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 20:27:26 GMT, Bobs Dorgan <<d77737@epix...>> wrote:
<snip quoted jz post>
>Hey John,
>have you used this method yet for other USTs?
>Last weekend I played a Xmas party and I had a Fisman Natural go
>squirrely on me. I've played that guitar several places without
>incidence, but Saturday night when I did my sound check, the 2nd strings
>(12 string) were noticably louder than the others. I quickly changed
>batteries, but no soap. Luckily my wife was there, and she buzzed home
>and picked up another guitar.
>I pulled the strings off last night, pulled the saddle and found that
>some paper shims were used in the installation. I'll eventually change
>this out to a b-band but I'd like to get through the holidays before I
>do.
>Bob Dorgan
| Followup B-Band Definitive for John |
|---|
From: <firestick@my-deja...>
Subject: Re: Followup B-Band Definitive for John
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:30:08 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
In article <83hg77$dod$<1@nnrp1...>>,
firestick@my-deja.com wrote:Hi John,
Another long but hopefully concise pickup related cathartic response.
At the very end of my previous letter I mentioned the need for a Y-
chord or a Fishman Pocket Blender, which splits the stereo signal from
the b-band preamp/endpin/stereo guitar cord, so you can have
independent control of mic and pickup. My problem is that I have not
found an ideal or even desirable internal location for the internal
(sic) mic that enhances the sound significantly.
As to other undersaddles, yes, they can and do all have balancing
problems (Martin thinline, Fishman, Dunlop, Yamaha, and even Takamine,
as they all depend, like the B-Band (un-clayed) on the string angle
going over the saddle (thus the string pressure on the pickup at each
string location) and the true and precise flatness of the saddle
underside. All benefit from some kind of insulator like the clay to
even the vibrations that generate impulse at each string location.
(Except the Takamine which has pressure adjustment screws at both ends
of the saddle - hidden under the little round dots). Since the B-Band
is so thin, insulating, whether with shim or clay, has the least impact
on the action height, thus reducing the need for further saddle
shaving. (This very thinness and the pickup's hardness no doubt
increases the B-Band susceptibility to balance problems).
More importantly, I have never been very good at sanding the bottom of
a saddle without using a surface grinder or having a tool and dye maker
(my father for instance) use a precision surface grinder to precisely
keep a 90 degree angled, perfectly flat relationship. I suspect that
many of the problems with unclayed, undersaddle installations that
occur once a saddle is shaved to achieve a lower action (or at least
the pre-pickup action height) is the result of imperfect sanding
tolerances, but not all. Even the slightess hollow on a non-insulated
installation can prove devastating to balance **More on this at the end
of this page.
Now Martin is very prescient in slotting their saddle/string peg holes
so that string angle/pressure on the saddle is even, resulting in a
factory ready ideal pickup situation, but the problem I have found on
nearly all Martins, especially the ones that pre-dated their use of
adjustable truss rods was that the factory action was much too high for
me. Most new quality guitars, in fact, have a fairly equal string angle
over the saddle, and unfortunately, most need action adjustments. On
the other hand, a Taylor out of the box, in most cases provides a much
lower and usable standard action. But I have noticed that few if any
Taylors have the identical string over saddle angle for each string.
The minute you start messing with the saddle to reduce action height
you encounter pickup related balance problems since the all important
(at least without the clay) string angle may change unequally or be
reduced to an insufficient degree. The slots Martin uses help a lot but
you can still have balance problems from uneven sanding or reduced
string angle. Certainly this is one reason why so many players tend to
adjust their truss rods rather than sand their saddles to lower action
and many of us cannot run to our guitar tech every time the weather
changes and the action follows suit.
**To finish up on the note earlier as to clay method advantage let me
say that insulating with clay, in every case I have participated in,
not only evens the balance, but reduces the string angle dependency to
nearly zero. It also can sweeten the sound and improve projected tonal
power. Important to note however, if the insulation is too thick, you
can run into issues involving individual string articulation. Simply
put, the pickup will tend to blend the string sounds together thus
reducing each strings individual character and resulting in a "muddy"
sound. Folks who mostly strum may not notice or even have a problems
with this (in less than extreme cases) but it can be annoying even
devastating.
Thanks for taking the time to read this and I promise again not to
produce future communications that are quite this wordy. However,
acoustic guitar pickups have been the cause of many years of sleepless
nights for me and I suspect for MANY others, and there are solutions in
which the B-Band can play an intrinsic part. Its thinness, superb
acoustic properties, ease of installation, reasonable cost, and first
class preamp make it my choice and the company's stated dedication to
future design improvements (perhaps even providing the pickup in a
factory created insulator based sandwich) give me confidence in its
future. I would buy company stock. They should make the pickup
available without the preamp for the clam-handed like me who like to
experiment.
Peace
Doug (Can I go to bed now?) Kennedy
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
| Anyone try the John Zyla method of seating a piezo pickup? |
|---|
From: Bob Dorgan <d77737@epix...>
Subject: Re: Anyone try the John Zyla method of seating a piezo pickup?
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:53:58 GMT
Organization: Free Wades
ken wrote:
>
> Anyone try the John Zyla method of seating a piezo pickup
> to achieve string balance?
>
> How does it work? How often does it have to be done?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Ken
I tried it. It's quick, easy and from what I've seen permanent.
John has used it longer than any of us, so he can give you a better
perspective.
Bob Dorgan
| B-Band, Mixpro and other questions [2] |
|---|
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: B-Band, Mixpro and other questions
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:13:59 -0600
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <8ec8c5$v1o$<1@nnrp1...>>, <mwpannell@my-deja...> wrote:
> Though I have followed B-Band and other acoustic pickup posts on and off
> for a while, it's now time to start putting it all together and make
> some decisions. Please excuse my naivete, but all this has just become
> very important to me. Can someone help me with info:
>
> 1. Should the B-Band Core 99 system (under-saddle pickup and mic) work
> with the new LR Baggs' Mixpro?
>
> 2. With the powered (?) Mixpro preamp/mixer, can the battery be
> done away with inside the guitar?
>
> 3. Has anyone tried the Mixpro?
>
> 4. And finally (for the moment anyway), regarding B-Band installation
> I've read about the potential string-to-string balance problems and a
> clay solution that seemed to help in various ways. I did a B-Band search
> at deja.com but got a zillion posts I haven't had time to rummage
> through. Does anyone have a good
> B-Band/installation/clay/whatever/whatever FAQ posted or that they could
> email me? Larry Pattis maybe? Others?
>
> I'll be putting all this in an old (early '70s) non-electronic Ovation
> Custom Balladeer and a new Larriveé. And as mainly a lurker, thanks for
> this and all the other help I've gotten from the group.
>
> Michael
Michael,
Remeber that the B-band product that "goes" with their dual-channel
external pre-amp, the Entity (to be able to run without an internal
battery), has a unique internal (to the guitar) pre-amp. Even a regular
Core99 will not function without battery. This may prove to be necessary
information when evaluating the Baggs (or any other) dual-channel pre-amp
product.
THE NEWEST versions of the B-band are a tad thicker than the original, and
it seems that if you've got a good saddle slot, and the ability to make
sure the bottom of your saddle is very flat, these "instructions" become
moot. Even my one "problem child" guitar that required the clay works
perfectly without it now, due to the newest B-band element.
BELOW is an old exchange that I had with John Zyla...I'm asking the
questions, and he is providing the answers.
John Zyla once said to me:
I used Amaco - it's called just that "Self Hardening Clay" . The box will
say "Mexican pottery clay "(red) or "Marblex" (gray) - available in 32 oz
boxes - It's enough to do about a lifetimes worth of saddles, and make
some mini sculptures to boot. I choose red, I don't think it matters.
Product numbers are 48652C (Mexican - red) and 47336w (gray). There will
also be on the shelf small packages of non-hardening clays such as
"Scupley" and others - I don't recommend them as they will not harden.
>2) Is this sort of clay available at "hobby" shops, or do I need to find a
more specialized type store?
If you have a university nearby that has an art department, then at least
one of the bookstores near the university will have an art supplies dept.
That is where you can find it. Otherwise, probably an art supply store.
Best bet is near a university.
>3) How exactly do you fashion the two "layers" of clay, and to what
approximate thickness do the layers need to be?
I tried different methods of getting the clay into the saddle slot, and for
me, the best way is to take a Popsicle stick, and cut one end at about a 20
degree angle, the rougher the better. Then, get a piece of the clay on
between the fingers of one hand, and with the other hand holding the stick,
load the stick with a bit, then sort of "paint" it onto the bottom of the
slot. think of applying spackling to drywall - this seems the best analogy
I can give. I try to work fast as it loses the little moisture it has fast,
in such thin layers, and one needs to have the "sandwich" completed, with
string pressure on it before this happens. I tamp down the stuff with the
Popsicle stick after I have the clay in the slot. As far as layer
thickness, I haven't measured exactly, but it's just really really thin
-think as thin as you can make it and get a solid layer (without holes).
I'm estimating .25 mm or less. I actually leave a bit of open space around
the perimeter (think the "walls" of the saddle slot) so that the stuff will
squish out toward the walls as saddle pressure is applied. This ensures
that I end up with a thinner layer than I could apply by hand.
Pick up a tad of the clay with the stick, then wipe it into the saddle slot
like you are cleaning a peanut butter knife on the edge of the jar lip.
You've done it when you make a sandwich. Same technique. This will leave a
bit of the clay on the side of the saddle slot, inside it. Now, just take
the end of the stick and tamp down. Repeat this till you have tamped down a
nice thin layer. Don't worry if there is a bit of clay color on the saddle,
keep a slightly damp rag handy and it wipes right off.
>4) I suppose that I can use the saddle itself to "tamp" down the first
>layer of clay?
I tried this, and it did not seem to work out. I found the best way was to
use the stick as a tamper. The clay is initially plastic, but not overly
so, so you've got to use some pressure if you use the saddle, Using the
stick allows finer control. Try to get the layer reasonable flat, so the
B-Band won't get deformed when string pressure is applied.
I hope this info is of use to you. You will develop your own style of
applying the clay, and don't be shy to applying it more than once to get
your technique down - you can scrape it right out with the Popsicle stick
once it's in. I experimented a few times before I ever put the B-Band in.
You can even - since this is a new process to you, for experience, just
apply a layer to the saddle slot, put on the saddle, then string up. Then
you can let the clay cure (takes a day or so) and take it apart to look at
how it ended up. In this way you can refine your layer thickness,
technique, etc. I did this and found it helpful.
You will notice when you remove the saddle that it sticks a tiny bit. It's
not glued or anything - there's just a bit of a joint there you have to
separate.
You can also apply a thin layer of the clay between two pieces of wood,
under some pressure (put a cement block on it for a day) and then separate
the pieces of wood to examine the clay once it has hardened. All of this
observation will allow you to predict the behavior of the material and
refine your method before you apply it to the Traugott.
I think the saddle should fit the slot around the edges well, because I
think the clay will tend to powder over time, and you don't want to lose
much of it. The powdering tendency is a good thing (not a negative as one
might think initially) because it tends to improve the contact joint inside
of the sandwich. Think of the sandwich/joint as an organic unit. Does that
sound odd?
Pick up a tad of the clay with the stick, then wipe it into the saddle slot
like you are cleaning a peanut butter knife on the edge of the jar lip.
You've done it when you make a sandwich. Same technique. This will leave a
bit of the clay on the side of the saddle slot, inside it. Now, just take
the end of the stick and tamp down. Repeat this till you have tamped down a
nice thin layer. Don't worry if there is a bit of clay color on the saddle,
keep a slightly damp rag handy and it wipes right off.
Larry Pattis
"Reality is unbelievable"
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
From: John <zylaNOSPAM@joymail...>
Subject: Re: B-Band, Mixpro and other questions
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 05:33:52 GMT
Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 73,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups.
On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:00:38 -0400, Tom Loredo
<<loredo@spacenet...>> wrote:
<snip>
> If there is sufficient interest,
>I'll cut out the Zyla method posts and put them on the web, if John
>agrees to this.
Tom, this is fine to post, I encourage it. I have made one change to
the method, and that is that I mix a bit of "Durhams Water Putty" - in
a toothpaste consistency mix- in with the clay mix, this solves a
problem I experienced with the clay falling apart over time. It just
makes the clay mix harden a bit more. Another advantage is it seems to
lengthen the (wet time) which is good, cause that clay dries pretty
darned fast in such micro thin layers..
One thing to remember about these bedding techniques is that they are
reversible - the clay scrapes right out if you ever need to re-do one,
or want to remove the clay for any reason.
I caution folks to never use an adhesive (glue) in their saddle
slots. I know most readers here know that's a no-no, but I thought I
would mention it in case there are some naive readers who might think
it a good thing to try.
Grace and Peace,
JZ
<snip>
>>
>
>Peace,
>Tom Loredo
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