| Anybody have trouble with carryon guitar since 9/11? [2] |
|---|
From: Hans Andersson <handers@tulane...>
Subject: Anybody have trouble with carryon guitar since 9/11?
Date: 17 Sep 2001 11:07:06 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
I am going to Boston on Thursday. I have always had good luck carrying
on my Lowden. I wonder if the current circumtsnces will change that. I
do not want to check it, tho' I will gate check if I must.
Anybody traveling with a guitar since Sept 11?
Hans
From: Hmemerson <hmemerson@aol...>
Subject: Re: Anybody have trouble with carryon guitar since 9/11?
Date: 17 Sep 2001 18:32:45 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Hi Hans,
I flew to SF on 9/4 via United. On the phone, I was told I could gate-check at
JFK.
When I got there, they said no, but they put the guitar on a hand cart and
walked it to the plane so it didn't do the conveyor belt deal.
It was suppose to be with the odd-sized luggage in SF, but wound up on the
baggage carousel anyway.
It wasn't the least bit affected, though I was pretty disappointed.
Anyway...........
When I flew from SF to SeaTac on 9/8, Alaska Airlines allowed me to gate-check
and the guitar was brought to me as I exited the plane.
Perfect.
Now, when I flew from SeaTac to JFK this past Saturday (9/15), even with all
the security, etc., they allowed me to gate-check. When I brought the guitar to
the door of the plane, the steward said,"I think we probably have room in the
cabin, but leave it here and I'll let you know."
I sat down in my seat, and about 5 minutes later an announcement was made,"Mr.
Emerson, your guitar is in the first class upright closet"
That was United Airlines on my return home.
The 4 bottles of wine I drank were free as well.
My wife picked me up at JFK and we drove home.
Good luck with your flight.
Best regards,
Howard Emerson
| Anyone flown very recently with your guitar as carry on or gate check? [4] |
|---|
From: Hank Mauel <whmauel@neworld...>
Subject: Re: Anyone flown very recently with your guitar as carry on or gate check?
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 09:28:25 -0700
Organization: InReach Internet
--
"Ed Bianchi" <<ebianchi@enounce...>> wrote in message
news:<3BC070E5.BE9337D5@enounce...>...
> Wondering if anything has changed at the major airports where they might
> stop letting guitars at least up to a gate check.
> Thanks
> -Ed Bianchi
Hi Ed..
Both Lance McCollum and I flew last weekend to St Louis via TWA. The folks
at the TWA counter 'suggested' checking the guitars (both in Calton flight
cases) and after going through all the new security procedures, I'm sure
that was the 'easiest' way out! Security procedures even had random checks
that involved people removing their shoes, which then went through the
security scanners. I'm sure they would have REALLY loved to get hold of a
guitar in it's case...especially if there were any electronics on board the
instrument!
Our instruments arrived safely in St Louis, and likewise on the return trip
to California.
So, I guess it's down to checking them through with baggage. Sounds like a
boon for Calton/Mark Leaf/etc type flight cases.
Hank
Hank Mauel
Mauel Guitars
http://www.mauelguitars.com
>
>
>
>
From: No Busking <nobusking@erols...>
Subject: Re: Anyone flown very recently with your guitar as carry on or gate check?
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:33:57 -0400
Ed asked:
> Wondering if anything has changed at the major airports where they might
> stop letting guitars at least up to a gate check.
I flew the Sunday after the WTC attack, and then returned home a week later.
I checked the guitar in normal baggage on the trip out...I didn't try to
carry it on or gate check.
On the trip back, I asked for a gate check and got it. Then, at the door of
the aircraft, I asked the flight attendent if it was possible to carry it
on...she said it was OK if it fit in the first class closet (it did).
This was on Midwest Airlines, which is hardly a typical operation. They're
my favorite US airline by a LONG way.
My observation is that the security personnel don't seem to have any issues
with guitars (be careful about sharp tools in your case), and that the
chances of carrying on are enhanced by half-empty flights. As ever, though,
be prepared to check it in normal baggage if you catch a gate agent having a
bad day.
--
Michael Pugh
From: <markjens@ix...>
Subject: Re: Anyone flown very recently with your guitar as carry on or gate check?
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 18:56:51 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
On Sun, 07 Oct 2001 17:54:13 GMT, Charles Park <<cjpark1@home...>>
wrote:
>
>
>Ed Bianchi wrote:
>
>> Wondering if anything has changed at the major airports where they might
>> stop letting guitars at least up to a gate check.
>> Thanks
>> -Ed Bianchi
>
>Hi Ed,
>
> I'll be flying in a week and a half with a guitar. Now we ask Johnny
>Asia how I will make out. :-)
>
> Seriously I'm feeling that the guitar will be even safer now going
>through with the luggage. I use a Calton case to protect against crushing,
>bashing, and whatever else those airport folks can think up.
>
> Calton has saved my instruments through the past and I hope the future
>brings more of the same.
>
>Charles Park
>
>
Ed, Charles, (and all),
Mark Hanson (Accent on Music) was in the Sacramento area this weekend.
With the current climate in and around airports, this has obviously
become a major concern among musicians. Mark said that he uses a two
pronged attack: first and foremost he wears a tie, looks respectable,
and smiles a lot (or was that first, second, and third foremost?).
Next, he carries his Collings in a padded gig bag on his shoulder, and
walks right on the airplane. The case fits through templates, and the
whole package fits into overhead bins. His traveling companion for
this weekend, Doug Smith, uses the "other" approach. The guitar in a
bullet-proof case in a padded case routine for his Goodall.
Mark Jensen
From: jobro <joNOTbro@compuserve...>
Subject: Re: Anyone flown very recently with your guitar as carry on or gate check?
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 18:28:52 -0800
Organization: Johnsons and Brophy
I flew from Anchorage to Fairbanks last week with a parlor sized guitar in a
hard shell case. I experienced no difference from the routine that I'm used
to from years of flying - absolutely no problem carrying on the guitar. Of
course, this is Anchorage which may or may not be a similar to major
airports in the lower 48. I did notice somewhat more vigilant security
routines, but no difference in the ability to carry on anything. (except of
course, nail files and pocket knives).
Dan Johnson
"Ed Bianchi" <<ebianchi@enounce...>> wrote in message
news:<3BC070E5.BE9337D5@enounce...>...
> Wondering if anything has changed at the major airports where they might
> stop letting guitars at least up to a gate check.
> Thanks
> -Ed Bianchi
>
>
>
>
| Airport Security Bill in House [2] |
|---|
From: Ed <edncori@qis...>
Subject: Re: Airport Security Bill in House
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 12:58:44 -0500
Organization: None here...
We tend to think of you as "special" too, Jeff.
Ed
Jeff Sherman wrote:
> Wow! I feel like a 'Special Interest.'
>
> Thanks for the update, David.
>
> Sherman
>
> > "David D. Berkowitz" wrote:
> >
> > We can thank the American Federation of Musicians in coordination with
> > Reps. Howard Coble (R-N.C.) and Collin C. Peterson (D-Minn) (according
> > to the Post, a trombone and guitar player) who managed to insert a
> > provision in the House version of the bill to allow musicians to carry
> > musical instruments onto airlines regardless of other carry-on baggage
> > restrictions. The House bill passed last night. The bill goes to
> > conference to reconcile it with the Senate bill and onto El
> > Prezidente. I decline to comment on the merits of either bill, but
> > suffice it to say, I like this provision very much.
> >
> > Hooray!
> >
> > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26856-2001Nov1.html
> >
> > --
> > David D. Berkowitz
> > Berkowitz Guitars
> > 301 12th St, SE
> > Unit 1
> > Washington, DC 20002
> > (202) 543-1806
> > <ddb@berkowitzguitars...>
> > http://www.berkowitzguitars.com
From: David D. Berkowitz <ddb@berkowitzguitars...>
Subject: Re: Airport Security Bill in House
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 19:55:00 GMT
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_025C_01C163AF.6A61B760
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok. Here's the link to the correct bill:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c107:./temp/~c107swGCWtSEC. 106. ENHANCED SECURITY MEASURES.
Sec. 44918. Enhanced security measures`(a) IN GENERAL- To the extent the Under Secretary of =Transportation for Security determines appropriate, the Under Secretary =
shall take the following actions:
`(19) Develop security procedures to allow passengers =transporting a musical instrument on a flight of an air carrier to =
transport the instrument in the passenger cabin of the aircraft, =
notwithstanding any size or other restriction on carry-on baggage but =
subject to such other reasonable terms and conditions as may be =
established by the Under Secretary or the air carrier, including =
imposing additional charges by the air carrier.
--=20
David D. Berkowitz Berkowitz Guitars 301 12th St, SE Unit 1 Washington, DC 20002 (202) 543-1806 ddb@berkowitzguitars.com http://www.berkowitzguitars.com------=_NextPart_000_025C_01C163AF.6A61B760
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ok. Here's the link to the =
correct=20
bill:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> <A=20
href=3D"http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c107:./temp/~c107swGCWt">ht=
tp://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c107:./temp/~c107swGCWt</A></FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>SEC. 106. ENHANCED SECURITY MEASURES.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> <FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3>Sec. 44918. Enhanced security measures</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2> `(a) IN=20
GENERAL- To the extent the Under Secretary of Transportation for =
Security=20
determines appropriate, the Under Secretary shall take the following=20
actions:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =20
`(19) Develop security procedures =
to allow=20
passengers transporting a musical instrument on a flight of an air =
carrier to=20
transport the instrument in the passenger cabin of the aircraft, =
notwithstanding=20
any size or other restriction on carry-on baggage but subject to such =
other=20
reasonable terms and conditions as may be established by the Under =
Secretary or=20
the air carrier, including imposing additional charges by the air =
carrier.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>-- <BR> David D. =
Berkowitz<BR> =20
Berkowitz Guitars<BR> 301 12th St, =
SE<BR> =20
Unit 1<BR> Washington, DC 20002<BR> =
(202)=20
543-1806<BR> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:<ddb@berkowitzguitars...>"><ddb@berkowitzguitars...></A><BR>=
=20
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.berkowitzguitars.com">http://www.berkowitzguitars.com<=
/A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_025C_01C163AF.6A61B760--
| Advice for transporting guitars on planes [2] |
|---|
From: Lumpy <lumpy@digitalcartography...>
Subject: Re: Advice for transporting guitars on planes
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:12:42 -0700
Michael Tay wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone here has
> experience in taking acoustic
> guitars onto planes...
There's probably a couple thousand posts
on that subject in the google archives.
> ...the cargo
> hold is unpressurised...
Not likely.
> ...what should I do to safeguard
> my pride and joy?
Insure your guitar.
I traveled 25,000 air miles last year
with my guitar in a Hiscox case, checked
as regular baggage. Never had a problem in
the world. But the extra peace of mind that
the insurance gave me ($25US annual premium)
was certainly worth every penny.
So tell us about -
- What country
- What airline
- What kind of guitar
- What kind of case
lumpy
From: Fred Shrimer <ftshrimer@telus...>
Subject: Re: Advice for transporting guitars on planes
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 03:21:52 GMT
Probably too late for you now, but I just flew a four-leg trip last
week, and checked my Gibson in as luggage. It was packed in a Calton
case, and left tuned to pitch. It made the trip with no worries.
That's at least the fifth time I've flown that guitar that way.
For your situation, though, since Calton cases are typically specially
ordered to fit your guitar, i.e., the chances of finding a local dealer
who has a Calton or equivalent type case in stock that fits your guitar
are likely quite low, you may have to pack it very well in its case,
then locate an oversize shipping box at your local dealer, and surround
it on all six sides with lots of shock-absorbing stuff. Clothing and
towels and sleeping bags work well for this.
I've done that twice, but found it way more nuisance than the Calton
case route. In the two times I packed and checked it in that way, I
took Wade Miller's advice, found an old sleeping bag, and wrapped the
whole case in that, then made up the difference with other things, such
as my business suit, Docker "No-Iron" pants, hotel towels, etc etc. :-)
It also worked fine, but just a higher hassle factor. Take a couple
rolls of the clear packing tape. Duct tape is not as good, as it comes
off when the box is handled.
I don't think I'd buy the guitar a seat on the airplane, unless of
course you get to have its meal too. Or maybe you could play songs
badly until they pay you to shut up, thereby offsetting your higher
costs. <g>
Fred
Michael Tay wrote:
>
> G'Day all,
>
> newbie poster here, so apologies if I stumble into any minefields.
>
> I was wondering if anyone here has experience in taking acoustic
> guitars onto planes.
>
> The situation is this: I'm going on a trip next Friday and I'm taking
> my new guitar. The airline wants to charge me for an extra seat if I
> put the guitar in the cabin, which I don't want to pay, but the cargo
> hold is unpressurised.
>
> My question is, should I risk my guitar in the unpressurised cargo
> hold, and if it is safe, what should I do to safeguard my pride and
> joy?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Michael Tay
| Recent Guitar Flight Report [2] |
|---|
From: Gregor Martin <gkmartin@ak...>
Subject: Recent Guitar Flight Report
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:48:44 -0900
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
On my recent trip to Seattle I took along my Martin OO 15, I acquired this
little guitar expressly for a travel instrument and it is in a Calton heavy
flight case. Leaving Alaska was no problem, I checked my luggage and walked
through the security portal where I shoved the cased guitar through the x
ray machine. I was not required to open the case for any further inspection.
I proceeded to the airplane, walked on with the guitar case in hand and the
stewardess said ,"Oh that will fit in the overhead bin and if it doesn't I
will put it in the closet for you". I was very surprised by the
accommodating attitude of the flight crew and inspection people and thought
to myself, this is a piece of cake. I was in for a major problem on the way
back to Alaska from Seattle ten days later however. I again checked my
luggage and got in the huge line for the inspection pat down. I had been in
line for an hour when an airport security person told me , "you are going to
have to check that(guitar) as regular luggage. I told the story of my
previous experience but was told that I could not walk on with the guitar or
gate check it and that the policy was changing by the hour. I was allowed to
retain my position in the massive line while checking the guitar which they
informed me would be insured by the airlines for $2500.00 which seemed fair
to me as the guitar and case value was well within that limit(a possible
down payment on a McAlister?). I was also told that I could increase the
insurance above the $2500 for $1.00 per thousand. They were careful to put
fragile stickers on the case and assured me that it would be hand carried to
and from the plane. I asked them why they weren't consistent with regard to
the rules and they said it was pretty much the choice of each airport as to
how they treated anything in the luggage area. I received my pat down which
included removing my shoes and standing on one foot and the other while they
ran the wand under the soles of my feet etc. While waiting to board the
flight to Anchorage another Alaska flight deplaned and low and behold here
comes a guy carrying a Martin case off the plane. The moral to this story is
do not expect any consistency with regard to you guitar and do expect to
check it on as regular luggage. If you don't have a flight case expect to
sign a waver for an improperly packed musical instrument. Lets hope that
when they get this fine tuned a bit more it will be easier and that the
legislation with regard to valuable musical instruments becomes law. If you
haven't had the displeasure of flying lately be ready for long waiting lines
and invasive procedures, it took me a total of 2 hours to get thought the
security check point and I had posted my ticket electronically and already
had my boarding pass.
Gregor Martin
From: No Busking <nobusking@erols...>
Subject: Re: Recent Guitar Flight Report
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 07:04:39 -0500
Interesting story...I probably like it because it illustrates my own view
:-)
Most of the time, you won't have trouble walking on an airplane with a
guitar in its case. Sometimes you will. If you're not prepared to check
it, you'll either miss the flight, or risk losing the guitar. I personally
travel with my guitar in a gig bag...I've never been required to check it,
but I'm knowingly risking loss of the instrument (which is why I travel with
an instrument I can afford to lose).
Airlines and airports aren't consistant in their application of the rules,
and they don't have to be. Guitars are clearly outside carryon guidelines,
and anytime they let you do it, they've done you a favor that they're not
required to do again.
The tradeoff with a Calton case is that while it increases the protection of
the instrument, it's size increases the chances of being asked to check it.
I've never been asked to sign a waiver when checking an instrument (and I
don't currently own any ATA-approved cases), but it's true that airlines can
be exempt from covering losses from non-ATA approved cases. Happily, in
every damage incident of which I've ever been told, the airline paid for the
guitar.
FWIW, I haven't noticed any major differences in these policies since Sept.
11.
--
Michael Pugh
(falling a little short of my regular 100k airmiles this year)
| Flying with your instrument - a strategy [6] |
|---|
From: Peter MacDonald <pjmacd1@insightbb...>
Subject: Flying with your instrument - a strategy
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 04:59:04 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband
This comes from Bev Lawton of the cittern-l group on yahoogroups.com.
I have his permission to post this here. It concerns a
"mandolin-on-steroids" type of instrument, but I think it is equally
applicable to guitars.
--------------------------------------------
Well I have flown London,UK to Dublin twice since Sept 11th with my 10
string Fylde in a hard Hiscox case with mixed results.
3 out of 4 taken onboard as hand luggage. The other time they wouldn't
let me have it in the cabin for space reasons - fair enough the flight
was full - BUT I had a spare ticket as a friend couldn't make the trip
- I requested the Cittern occupy the seat I had a ticket for but was
told "we are already 20 people overbooked" + "seats are for people not
instruments!" I made a bit of a fuss and pointed out that my
instrument was NOT going into the hold and if it didn't fly then
neither would I - the check-in girl said "fine we will just off-load
your luggage and leave without you" it was at this juncture I pointed
out that (A) Civil Aviation Authority and FAA regulations implicitly
forbid luggage to travel without an accompanying passenger (B) My
luggage was unmarked - and I wouldnt help them identify it! (C) All
luggage on that type of plane was in shaped palletised containers and
they would have to unload all eight of them from the plane first
(helps if you know aeroplanes a bit!) and then get all 250 of the
other passengers to identify thier luggage to find mine.
(C) they would certainly miss thier take-off slot and that the plane
was already turned around and "burning and turning" it would cost them
tens of thousands of pounds
(D) they couldn't make me actually get on the plane and if they
attempted to take off with my luggage I would walk to the nearest
phone and ask the CAA official to come to the ramp to intervene.
Eventually the check-in girl agreed to my request to get the loading
crew-chief to put my Cittern in a special hold most modern planes have
to carry animals ie nowhere near any other luggage that could damage
it.
The thing that really pissed me off though was that I had an empty
bloody seat next to me for the entire flight!!!
This is the only time I have ever had any trouble with check-in
personnel and even this was all conducted in a friendly manner - you
just need to know your facts and be persistant and stand your ground -
time is on your side.
In essence even before Sept 11th I ALWAYS make sure some luggage is
checked INTO the hold before opening negotiations - it's your trump
card - don't even let them see the case at the luggage check-in - open
negotiations at the departure ramp/gate!
Since Sept 11th particularily in the USA I imagine they are even
keener not to let unaccompanyied luggage travel!!!
Failing this advice - take up the piccolo :-p
Bev "The Bloke" Lawton
---------------------------------
I hope some folks find this useful, as well as amusing.
Peter
From: Adrian Legg <commercial-free@speech...>
Subject: Re: Flying with your instrument - a strategy
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:36:31 +0000
On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:23:04 +0000, No Busking wrote
(in message <a6i46h$8i$<1@bob...>>):
> I'm a very frequent traveller (usually with guitar, and usually carrying it
> on)...and didn't find it amusing at all. Perhaps I'm just a grump.
>
Perhaps you could try looking at it from the perspective of someone whose
modest living depends on an instrument's intact survival, who doesn't have
the money to get another one made in a huge rush, and who is looking at
cancelling work until it's fixed.
The man who made my road guitar _still_ has a huge flow of airline damage
repairs - he says if anything it's increased lately, and in only one of the
instances is the airline who did the damage showing any sign of taking some
responsibility for it. Some of the others apparently will pay some kind of
puny compensation per kilo.
Clearly flying in the US is often different to our experiences in Europe and
Canada - I had much more hassle and actual damage with Aer Lingus on a few
London/Dublin trips than I ever did with United, though with the latter I did
have Premier Exec for a couple of years, which naturally made life a little
less rigidly regulated.
> I hope I never fly with this guy.
That's probably your loss, the instrument sounds interesting.
Adrian
--
www.adrianlegg.com
From: No Busking <nobusking@erols...>
Subject: Re: Flying with your instrument - a strategy
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:50:55 -0500
Hi Adrian,
> Perhaps you could try looking at it from the perspective of someone whose
> modest living depends on an instrument's intact survival, who doesn't have
> the money to get another one made in a huge rush, and who is looking at
> cancelling work until it's fixed.
Agreed, which is why I edited my original scathing reply down to "I hope I
never fly with this guy". His priorities and requirements in travel are
entirely different than mine, and in direct conflict. It would really piss
me off if my travel plans were delayed for several hours and connections
missed because he insisted on carrying an oversized instrument onto a flight
that really didn't have room for it. That might be wrong and selfish on my
part, but I REALLY DO hope to never be delayed by his antics.
It's worth you looking at it from my perspective as well...that of a weary
business traveller who just wants to get to his destination and get home and
doesn't care in the slightest about a carry-on package that is clearly
outside the guidelines.
> Clearly flying in the US is often different to our experiences in Europe
and
> Canada - I had much more hassle and actual damage with Aer Lingus on a few
> London/Dublin trips than I ever did with United, though with the latter I
did
> have Premier Exec for a couple of years, which naturally made life a
little
> less rigidly regulated.
I've travelled extensively in Europe, Adrian, usually with a guitar
(although only once on the London/Dublin route, and I didn't have a guitar
on that trip). Generally my experience has been about the same as in the
US...most of the time I can carry the instrument on, and on those times when
I can't, I've always been able to get a gate check, and I've never had an
instrument damaged.
Which isn't to say that damage doesn't occur. Instruments on flights are a
huge problem for guys with your requirements, and I really am sympathetic.
Wish I had an answer, but it doesn't make me any happier about an entire
plane being delayed because a guy won't gate check his flight case.
> That's probably your loss, the instrument sounds interesting.
He'd be unlikely to start playing it on the flight anyway (wouldn't that be
kind of rude?) I'd be happy to see him play a concert, and probably would
even be willing to host a house concert...I'd just rather not be held
hostage in my travel plans by his requirements.
--
Michael Pugh
From: Adrian Legg <commercial-free@speech...>
Subject: Re: Flying with your instrument - a strategy
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:50:36 +0000
On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:50:55 +0000, No Busking wrote
(in message <a6i9bf$d07$<1@bob...>>):
>[...]
>
> Agreed, which is why I edited my original scathing reply down to "I hope I
> never fly with this guy".
I can imagine the original draft :-)
>[...]
>
> It's worth you looking at it from my perspective as well...that of a weary
> business traveller who just wants to get to his destination and get home and
> doesn't care in the slightest about a carry-on package that is clearly
> outside the guidelines.
As a frequently totally shagged out traveller, I understand entirely.
However, keeping music alive needs some practical help here and there.
I don't think it's a huge deal for a carrier to take a bit of extra care with
the delicate tools of people who will do their best to amuse them when they
all get home, will play at their weddings, and try to offer emotional solace
or plain fun. Very many carrier staff already do. As ever though, it only
takes one bolshie ground-staffer to make life impossible. And it is hard to
understand why the application of extra money for an extra ticket for an
instrument that will be put in the overhead anyway regardless of said ticket
should make that situation somehow no longer a safety issue. That's happened
to me. Stuff like that and the overbooking aspect of this story makes us even
more cynical.
However, our man here was naive to assume that an instrument can ever be
lashed into a seat in the face of FAA regs, though BA once did it for me on a
complex multi-carrier flight.
>
>[...]
> I've travelled extensively in Europe, Adrian, usually with a guitar
> (although only once on the London/Dublin route, and I didn't have a guitar
> on that trip). Generally my experience has been about the same as in the
> US...most of the time I can carry the instrument on, and on those times when
> I can't, I've always been able to get a gate check, and I've never had an
> instrument damaged.
I got a gate check in with Aer Lingus, but only got it brought into the
baggage area by hand once after landing at Heathrow _after_ I got shreiked at
for walking away from the steps on the apron to have a word with the baggage
loader. Every other time it came slamming out of the conveyor nose first.
I've found the attitude to guitars much more positive in the US - naturally,
it's a well used instrument there. My big hassles have always been Europe or
Canada, but it's not a consistent thing. I made it to Corsica and back, and
to Bordeaux and back fine last year with Aer France with my little gig-bag,
and have instances of help above and beyond over the years.
But it was Aer Lingus who took the huge chunk out of a Calton, BA who wrecked
a Hiscox, and Virgin who left me fixing a broken strut in LA with a bit of
decorative picture frame. I don't think I had much option other than to use
an Adamas - wood guitars would never have survived some of those trips.
>
> Which isn't to say that damage doesn't occur. Instruments on flights are a
> huge problem for guys with your requirements, and I really am sympathetic.
> Wish I had an answer, but it doesn't make me any happier about an entire
> plane being delayed because a guy won't gate check his flight case.
I agree he's pushing his luck with a hard case. That's where safety regs
involving overhead catches bursting make sense, imho. He should have tried a
gig-bag before he staged the scene.
>
>> That's probably your loss, the instrument sounds interesting.
>
> He'd be unlikely to start playing it on the flight anyway (wouldn't that be
> kind of rude?)
I dunno - it's been suggested to me several times on United :-) I'd have some
questions for him though.
> I'd be happy to see him play a concert, and probably would
> even be willing to host a house concert...
The trouble is, he has to get there to do it. I know at least one player whois well known in this n.g. who has cut his touring down because of the
problems of getting anywhere and coming out of it with a whole guitar and bit
of money in his pocket, and I know I'm not the only one now who plans tours
around driveable circuits now rather than doing the leaps by plane. It cuts
out gigs, which is a shame - but my experience makes me think they'd only be
cut out anyway by busted or lost guitars.
I'd love to bring my new acoustic on the next jaunt, and while the pick-up
business is still a big problem, the travel side of it is the real worry.
It's a very small parlour size, so with a bit of luck the Di & I might make
the cabin ok with two guitars.
I know it seems unfair that musicians should ask for special dispensations,
but without them, and with the best will in the world, there is less live
music.
Adrian
--
www.adrianlegg.com
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Flying with your instrument - a strategy
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:04:14 -0500
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
Adrian wrote:
> As a frequently totally shagged out traveller, I understand entirely.
> However, keeping music alive needs some practical help here and there.
> I don't think it's a huge deal for a carrier to take a bit of extra care
with
> the delicate tools of people who will do their best to amuse them when
they
> all get home, will play at their weddings, and try to offer emotional
solace
> or plain fun. Very many carrier staff already do. As ever though, it only
> takes one bolshie ground-staffer to make life impossible.
Yeah...I absolutely agree with everything you've written here. Professional
musicians traveling by air have a harder time than they should, and airlines
don't generally go out of their way to help as a matter of policy. My
experience has been pretty good with ground staff and cabin crew, but
occasionally I'll run in to someone that is determined to be unhelpful.
Your previous relationship with United is about the only solution...Premier
status has been helpful in getting me on airplanes with instruments as well.
Unfortunately, it's not possible to fly one airline everywhere all the time,
and it only takes one bonehead in luggage handling to turn a valuable
instrument into a toothpick collection.
> And it is hard to
> understand why the application of extra money for an extra ticket for an
> instrument that will be put in the overhead anyway regardless of said
ticket
> should make that situation somehow no longer a safety issue. That's
happened
> to me. Stuff like that and the overbooking aspect of this story makes us
even
> more cynical.
Agreed...the whole "buy a ticket for the instrument" ruse that airlines
sometimes try to foist is ridiculous. Why buy a ticket to put the
instrument in the overhead or in the first class closet? If the ticket were
for a "seat" for the guitar, it would be a different matter...but your
example is the only one I've ever heard where a ticket purchase actually got
the instrument a seat.
Did it have the chicken, beef, or veg for the in-flight meal?
The thing about this that's really frustrating is that the airlines don't
seem have a standard solution at ANY price. Every flight is a risk.
> I've found the attitude to guitars much more positive in the US -
naturally,
> it's a well used instrument there.
Oh, I don't know. You're from the British Isles, and you seem to use a
guitar pretty well. :-)
Yes, the guitar is such a big part of popular culture here that it's
possible flight crews are more inclined to be helpful...although, again, my
experience has been that it's about the same in Europe as it is here.
In the interest of fairness, though, my flights are generally in and out of
major cities in Europe, and are usually on large commercial jets. My
experience would likely be different if I consistantly riding puddle-jumpers
into Corsica. The few hassles I've had carrying instruments on flights in
the US have involved turbo-props...the solution there is to hand the guitar
to someone on the tarmac, stand there and watch them put it in the luggage
hold, and wait until they hand it to me at the far end.
> I agree he's pushing his luck with a hard case. That's where safety regs
> involving overhead catches bursting make sense, imho. He should have tried
a
> gig-bag before he staged the scene.
I've never been asked to check an instrument in a gig bag...have been able
to carry it on every time. The problem, though, is that the ONE time you
might be required to check the instrument, you could be pretty certain that
it would die a horrible death.
> I know it seems unfair that musicians should ask for special
dispensations,
> but without them, and with the best will in the world, there is less live
> music.
I have no problem with asking for special dispensations...I do it every time
I carry a guitar onboard. My attitude, though, is that I'm asking for a
favor...I don't have a RIGHT to carry the instrument on, unless it is within
the guidelines for carry-on luggage. Granted, I have that luxury because my
living isn't earned from playing guitar, but my career DOES involve
travelling a great deal, and my rights to safe and convenient air travel are
just as valid as any musician's.
In the situation described, there's no question that the airline was being
PARTICULARLY unhelpful. I guess the bit that really pissed me off was when
he declared that he would refuse to help them ID his luggage, thereby
holding the entire flight hostage to his demands (he saw that as a good and
noble thing!!!). When my children were younger and acted like that, I
spanked them (now I just glare).
I wish there were an acceptable solution, and believe that the airlines
should come up with a standard approach to dealing with professional
musicians that are just trying to get to the next gig. But as a passenger,
I think this guy behaved like an ass in the specific situation.
For the record...my best success has been as follows: If I'm asked to check
the instrument, I ask for a gate check (on the theory that the ticket agent
has already decided not to help me, and further discussion with them will
only exacerbate the situation). When I'm about to board the plane, I smile
at the flight attendant, explain that I've been given a gate-check tag for
the instrument, tell them it's very valuable and dear to me, and ask if
there's any way it can be carried on...usually, they'll say yes and help me
find a suitable place to put it.
But that's probably just because of my natural charm. ;-)
Cheers,
Mike
From: Ken Cashion <kcashion@datasync...>
Subject: Re: Flying with your instrument - a strategy
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:41:12 GMT
Organization: Datasync
On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 04:59:04 GMT, Peter MacDonald
<<pjmacd1@insightbb...>> wrote:
>This comes from Bev Lawton of the cittern-l group on yahoogroups.com.
>I have his permission to post this here. It concerns a
>"mandolin-on-steroids" type of instrument, but I think it is equally
>applicable to guitars.
I do not believe that this is the time in the US to startquoting specs to employees who are afraid of losing their jobs and
they themselves do not understand the regs.
The airline terminal employees are very much like our IRSfolks now. They can handle the straight paperwork but if there is a
problem, they buck it upstairs because they are not getting paid to
understand the constantly-changing conditions.
The aircraft might just shut down and the airline file chargesagainst the offending party. And this can be pretty much whomever
they identify as offensive.
We had little control over our air travel before and less now.We still have to just surrender our bodies to the aluminum tube and
pray for the best.
There is nothing that cannot be transported safely in a box onan airline.
I use to transport highly delicate and expensive opticalequipment internationally and they were hand-carried and strapped in
the seat next to me.
Once when I couldn't go, we hired a security courier. Hedropped the box -- unit inside was destroyed.
I designed a shipping box and we stopped hand-carrying them. The instrument was 12" long and 6" diameter and weighed about20 lbs. The shipping case was an 18" cube.
I had designed the case for twice the worst that could beimagined and I shipped a mockup on a circuitus route that would sample
serveral airports and handling arrangements.
When it finally arrived back to me, I could "read" how manyg's it was exposed to and on what axis. I had a record of maximum
humidity and pressure differencial it had experienced.
There is no reason to carry a musical instrument on board anaircraft with the idea of protecting it. A proper case is available
-- or could be made in most garage workshops.
Ken Cashion
| flying with guitar - yes or no? [7] |
|---|
From: Hojo2x <hojo2x@aol...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - yes or no?
Date: 18 Mar 2002 06:55:43 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
After the lovely and talented Susan Jurist wrote:
>>flying with guitar - yes or no?
>> Has anyone carried an OM sized hard-shell case on recently?
The equally lovely and equally talented Larry Pattis wrote:
>
>Definitely worth trying. Take it in the Calton, and do the regular >things
you would do to get on-board....
>
>I fly April 1st....and I haven't decided if I'm going>to take the Calton, or
risk the gig bag....I'll probably end up taking
>my own advice and take the Calton...
Susan, Larry -
Don't dick around. Put your guitars in Calton cases and check them through.
I'm currently traveling, and I couldn't even get a mandolin into the cabin with
me out of Anchorage: the obnoxious check-in clerk at the Alaska Airlines
counter had me sized up as a green-eyed blonde Al Qaeda terrorist the minute
she saw my musical instrument.
When I asked to speak to her supervisor and explained that the instrument would
easily fit in the overhead compartment and that I carry mandolins with me all
the TIME when I fly, there were instantly two airport police (not one but TWO)
right THERE right THEN because I damn well DARED to gently remonstrate with
this idiot woman about her illogic and unfairness.
There was another guy with a guitar in a gigbag being allowed onboard, I saw
him and pointed him OUT, but he had a different check-in clerk.
So he and his instrument were clearly NOT a threat to civilization as we know
it, but because I had the clerk I had, I clearly was.
No bad language on my part. I made no accusations of stupidity or malice
against her (though both were pretty obvious,) and didn't even raise my voice.
Yet there were two bored shitheads in bulletproof vests standing by, BRISTLING
with weapons and ready to kick my ass, and shoot me if necessary for the crime
of wanting to bring a mandolin onboard a commercial aircraft.
(Okay, so maybe mandolin possession SHOULD be a federal crime....but that's
another thread topic entirely....)
Two days later in San Jose, no problem. Everyone I dealt with was perfectly
lovely, and I carried the mandolin onboard without any problems.
Short version: whether you or anyone else gets to carry a musical instrument
onboard a commercial flight these days is STRICTLY a matter of whim.
Don't expect fairness.
Don't expect justice.
Don't expect the basic American right to complain to someone at a higher level
of authority if some officious twit decides to treat you like shit, for
whatEVER reason.
I think anyone who's ever traveled regularly with musical instruments
instinctively understands that there are some frustrated control freaks in the
airline industry who just flat out HATE musical instruments and the people who
carry them.
I can understand WHY - as a class we musicians are whiny and want our delicate,
expensive guitars to be treated with civility and care, instead of drop-kicked
like a football aimed as a field goal from thirty yards out.
And that pisses some airline employees OFF, mainly those who don't like dealing
with the public to begin with.
Well, it used to be we could appeal to reason and to their supervisors' better
natures, but - for right now, anyway - the officious twits have the upper hand.
I know plenty of people have had no trouble whatsoEVER getting their guitars
onboard since 9/11, but you CANNOT count on that.
If you have to fly, put your instruments in the best cases you have, and check
them through. If you want to see if the airline employees will let you on with
a gigbag, fine, but if you go to the airport without a proper case as a backup,
I shudder to think what could happen.
I'm serious as a heart attack here.
Don't dick around.
Wear shoes you can step in and out of easily, and give yourself plenty of time
to trudge through the endless lines while security personnel who barely speak
English wave electric widgets over your crotch to see if you have weapons of
mass destruction tucked into your boxer shorts.
The security guy at the Seattle airport was waving his electronic wand over my
dick when I asked him: "What happens when folks have got PIERCINGS down there,
sport?"
This guy spoke English:
"That's when it gets INTERESTING..." he mumbled.
Don't screw around.
Don't let some malicious peabrains with too much power have any more control
over your life than you absolutelly have to give them.
Put your guitars in cases and check them through. It'll make your life easier
and your check-in time faster.
Wade Hampton "Gee, I Guess I Don't Have Any Strong Opinions On THIS Topic"
Miller
Chugiak, Alaska
From: No Busking <nobusking@erols...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - yes or no?
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 07:22:37 -0500
Wade wrote:
> I think anyone who's ever traveled regularly with musical instruments
> instinctively understands that there are some frustrated control freaks in
the
> airline industry who just flat out HATE musical instruments and the people
who
> carry them.
Same as it ever was...we've always been at the whim of control freaks. The
only thing that's changed is that they now have a bit of extra
self-righteousness. If you travel a lot with instruments, you'll eventually
have to check them.
My advice is to take the Calton, Susan. It increases the chance that you'll
have to check it, but greatly increases the survivability of the instrument
if you do.
Larry...I carry guitars onboard all the time in gigbags, and have only been
asked to check it once (and they allowed me to carry-on after a short
conversation). HOWEVER...I never go to the airport with a guitar in a
gigbag unless it's a small instrument that clearly fits within the carry-on
size restrictions (Baby Taylor), or it's an instrument I'm willing to lose
(Blueridge Dreadnaught). I'm guessing that the instrument with which you're
traveling is neither small nor disposable...my recommendation would be to
bring the Calton.
Wade further commented:
> (Okay, so maybe mandolin possession SHOULD be a federal crime....but
that's
> another thread topic entirely....)
Mandolins are OK, but I'd sure like to see some bagpipe legislation.
Cheers,
--
Michael Pugh
From: Jim McCrain <jim@mccrain...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - yes or no?
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:17:50 -0600
Organization: Walrus Sound Productions
Hojo2x wrote:
> ... the obnoxious check-in clerk at the Alaska Airlines
> counter had me sized up as a ... Al Qaeda terrorist ...
>
> ...When I asked to speak to her supervisor ....
>
> ...There was another guy with a guitar in a gigbag being allowed onboard, I saw
> him and pointed him OUT, but he had a different check-in clerk....
>
> ...No bad language on my part. I made no accusations of stupidity or malice
> against her (though both were pretty obvious,) and didn't even raise my voice....
Last year when I was flying from Anchorage to Dallas after a climb of Mt. McKinley,
I had this very same experience at Alaska Airlines. The only difference was to
substitute a case/box of climbing gear for a guitar. This very case had been
checked from Dallas to Salt Lake City and then on to Anchorage just a month before,
and there were no problems. But trying to get that box OUT of Alaska cost me an
extra $100! The check-in clerk put the box on the scale and said it was
over-weight, even though the scale clearly showed it to be 10 pounds UNDER the
limit.
When I asked to see her supervisor, she threatened to call security and have me
arrested! I decided to pay the fraudulent bill, took down her name and employee
number, and went on home. I sent in a written complaint, along with copies of all
the reciepts. Three months later, I got an apologetic letter from the President of
Alaska Airlines and a refund check of $100. Of course, they hoped that I would fly
with Alaska Air in the future. I replied that I wouldn't!
So, it all depends on who you get at the check-in counter. I shudder to think what
would have happenned to any guitar I had been carrying at the time!
Jim "I am going back to Alaska, but I will fly Delta" McCrain
From: Karl <acoustikarl@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - yes or no?
Date: 18 Mar 2002 14:37:26 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
<hojo2x@aol...> (Hojo2x) wrote in message news:<<20020318015543.07675.00002330@mb-fj...>>...
> I'm currently traveling, and I couldn't even get a mandolin into the cabin with
> me out of Anchorage: the obnoxious check-in clerk at the Alaska Airlines
> counter had me sized up as a green-eyed blonde Al Qaeda terrorist the minute
> she saw my musical instrument.
There was an article a few weeks ago in the Seattle Times about
musicians and instruments and airlines. In the article they told of
one fellow who Alaska Airlines made purchase a ticket at $160 for his
violin and then made him put it in the overhead bin once on the
airplane.
The article is at: http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=violin18m&date=20020218&query=VIOLINS
If that doesn't work go to www.seattletimes.com and click "search
archive" in the upper right corner and type in "violin" for the search
criteria.
Karl J.
From: Gregor Martin <gkmartin@ak...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - yes or no?
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:42:27 -0900
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
"Hojo2x" wrote > About his recent experience with air travel and musical
instruments.
Snipped: One mildly vehement post.
Wade,
I understand exactly what you went through and I have pointed this out in
previous posts that I wrote on the subject. The only way to go these days is
to spring for a Calton, Mark Leaf or some other flight worthy case and just
check it as luggage. I prefer to try to eliminate the possibility of any
stressful confrontations with already overstressed airline personnel. I
think it is important to bring the fact that one cannot depend on carrying
on or gate checking a musical instrument these days to the attention of
musicians who plan to fly. Thanks for a fresh update.
Gregor Martin
From: Ron McCollum <ronmcc4@earthlink...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - yes or no?
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:52:47 GMT
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
snip snip snip
My recent flight out of Memphis, TN on Delta just proves again that there is
no consistency or reason in some airline personnel's behavior. I wasn't
allowed to carry my Baby Taylor in its gig bag even away from the ticket
counter. Strange. I just took it back out to the car and left it - praying
for good weather for the guitar while on my trip. I've since bought a
checkable luggage case for it so as not to get caught again. Funny thing -
on my connecting flight, a guy with a full sized guitar in a gig bag gets on
with no problem. It would almost my two of my Baby....bottom line is -
check your guitar. It is entirely possible to be allowed to board at one
airport with it but not at the connecting leg. And no, they wouldn't allow
me to gate check it either.
Ron
From: jobro <jobroAT@compuserveDOT...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - yes or no?
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:32:48 -0900
Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services
Jim McCrain <<jim@mccrain...>> wrote
> Jim "I am going back to Alaska, but I will fly Delta" McCrain
Don't come up to Fairbanks, Jim, Delta bowed out in November and AK Airlines
has little or no competition. Oh, you can get to and from Anchorage on
Frontier , but the schedule is very limited, and NW has a limited schedule
to Minneapolis in the summer. Juneau? It's your only practical option at
this time.
RE the point at hand:
I've always had pretty good luck with Alaska, but haven't tried to carry
instruments since 9-11-01. They almost always accomodated me throughout the
90s when I traveled quite a bit.
Second point: There was an email message circulating around the youth
orchestras group here in Fairbanks this winter that basically said the same
thing as Wade - Alaska Airlines was not allowing any violins (!!!) in the
cabin. This just blew my mind and seriously, I simply DID NOT beliieve it
and really thought it was one of those urban legand type email things that
go around every once in a while. I said as such to my wife many times. But
since my kids play cello and bass, it was a moot point and I didn't
challenge it on the mailing list. Now I see that although there is
apparently some give and take, it might actually be the truth. I don't
believe AK Airlines would have ever refused a carry on mandolin or violin
pre-9/11, and they almost always allowed guitars in HSC.
As for the question of do we have the right to carry on things that we don't
have to use on the plane, I say, why the hell not? If it fits their
standards for size and does not harm or inconvenience other passengers, why
not? Why, for instance, should a lap top computer, personal backpack or
purse, or small suitcase be allowed and not a small hollow wooden instrument
that is easily and efficiently inspected? The airlines have every right and
responsibility to set standards for size and safety (as well as health,
noise,etc.), but within those standards they have no business deciding what
objects we carry on.
When you live in Fairbanks, air travel is not an option, it is a necessity
for ALL business and pleasure travel. We're 360 tough miles - a long and
hard full day's drive - from Anchorage and 3 - 5 days from the northern tier
of U.S. states. I've used Alaska Airlines and it's competitors in Alaska
and the pacific northwest for 22 years. I'd rate AK Airlines excellent
whenever they have meaningful competition in their market, but in the
several times I've been exposed to their monopoly corporate behavior in the
Fairbanks and other markets, it ABSOLUTELY STINKS in terms of price, service
and on-time record. Stinks very, very badly and I would use anyone else if
I had the chance. But we don't up here in much of the state at this time.
Dan Johnson.
| flying with guitar - Checking it thru? [13] |
|---|
From: TarBabyTunes <tarbabytunes@aol...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: 20 Mar 2002 16:06:39 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
This has been a really interesting thread, and thanks to all who have
contributed.
Now... The overwhelming majority have recommended checking the guitar thru to
the destination, and many have recommended aftermarket cases (e.g., the
Calton).
I have a couple more questions to perhaps put a finer point on this matter:
1) How safe from damage is a guitar when checked thru baggage handling on
domestic &/or international flights?
2) Can this be done with a standard, good quality hardshell case, or only with
a sturdier after-mkt case?
I'm sure there are horror stories about instruments being destroyed, but I'd
rather avoid the gory details for a statistical sort of overview, as in 'how
likely is it that an instrument will be damaged by airline baggage handling?'
Please don't scare me with details of splintered lovelies? <G>
Thanks,
stv
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:13:30 -0500
Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America
> I have a couple more questions to perhaps put a finer point on this
matter:
>
> 1) How safe from damage is a guitar when checked thru baggage handling on
> domestic &/or international flights?
>
> 2) Can this be done with a standard, good quality hardshell case, or only
with
> a sturdier after-mkt case?
They have to try pretty hard to damage a Calton case, but it can be done.
The advantage is that Caltons are considered flight cases (ATA approved),
and the airline is liable for damage that occurs (subject to limits...I'm
not sure what they are currently, but last I checked they were under $2,000)
To be fair, though, I'm familiar with 3 incidents where guitars in regular
hard-cases were destroyed, and the airline paid for the damage each
time...they're just not legally required to do so. I'm not aware of any
incidents where a guitar in a Calton was damaged (although I'm sure it
occurs occasionally).
I've never had a guitar in a normal case damaged from luggage handling, with
several hundred-thousand miles of travelling with instruments under my belt.
Still, I would never check an irreplaceable or expensive instrument in a
regular plywood or molded case - eventually, the odds will probably catch up
with me. I bought my Blueridge Dreadnaught specifically for the purposes of
travelling (plywood case). I carry it on whenever possible, but am
comfortable with checking it since it can be replaced if destroyed.
Not so with my Northworthy. On the flight back from England, I checked it
in it's Calton Case...they hand-carried it to the hold, and handed it to me
on the other end. I didn't even have to ask them to do so. Virgin was the
airline. I was very impressed with the care they took - not even a scratch
on the case.
Most of the time, you'll be fine. You can improve your odds by packing
newspaper or socks tightly under the headstock to prevent it from snapping
off if the instrument is dropped. Make sure that all parts of the
instrument fit snug in the case...again, use underwear or socks to firm it
up if it's loose.
Loosening strings or not is an ongoing debate here. I don't loosen the
strings, but there are those that will tell you to reduce the tension
somewhat...who knows what the right answer is.
Just one horror story...a friend's HD28 was destroyed when they somehow
drove a forklift through the regular molded case. The airline paid for a
replacement, and he mounted the Martin on the wall in his study.
Hope this helps,
Mike
From: Gregor Martin <gkmartin@ak...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:17:07 -0900
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
"No Busking" wrote about airline liability and flight cases for
instruments.
I got basically the same info from the airlines Mike. If the instrument is
in an approved flight case they would insure up to $2500.00 UP.SO. (Alaska
Airlines) and if in an approved case you also had the latitude to up the
insurance at a rate of one dollar per thousand I think it was. They also
told me that I could ask for special handling in which case the guitar would
be carried to the plane and then hand carried off the plane which they did
do. As Wade and others have pointed out though this and other procedures
varies considerably form one airport to the next. The key to flying with or
without an instrument is be prepared for inconveniences and changes is
policy without notice. A friend of mine just came back from a trip to Las
Vegas on Alaska airlines, no problems going down but when he came back they
found some syringes in his luggage. My friend is a diabetic and has a
prescription for the equipment but was still subjected to everything short
of a cavity search before he finally told them to take the syringes and
insulin if it was going to cause him to miss his flight and at that they
allowed him to board with his medicine after a supervisor was called to
mediate. I think these inconveniences are here to stay so we all need to be
aware and adjust accordingly.
Gregor Martin
From: HL <sweefmy@singnet...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:39:14 +0800
Organization: Singapore Telecommunications Ltd
"AMost2001" <<amost2001@aol...>> wrote in message
> I carry my electric ALWAYS in a gig bag onboard with me. Never had a
problem.
> Okay well once I did on a puddle jumper - they took it underneath. it was
a
> real small plane & they treated it fairly well....I think.,
Thanks! 'cos I'm making a trip from LA back to Singapore in June and will be
carrying my electric in a gig bag. This makes me feel more at ease :)
cheers,
john swee
From: CineStudy <cinestudy@aol...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 08:42:39 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
I would not be so a ease. I fly many international flights. I have seen many
tearfull pickers as they watch the axes in gig bags put in bubble wrap. Every
flight is different so rember Murphys Law. I now travel with a Backpacker. If
you really care about how it arrive pack it like it is going to be manhandled
and lost at see. This is a word from the wise who has seen it all. I was a tour
manager for rock bands in the eighties and things were nicer then..but not that
nice. Now it's a different story, you have to be really prepaired. And remeber
you are flying in June, peek season and a full plane most likely.
Rick Schmidlin
From: No Busking <nobusking@erols...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 06:21:43 -0500
> But I'm sorry, I don't think I quite understand this one part...
> Do you mean that the liability limits are under $2k?
Yes, that's what I meant, although Gregor has updated the number to $2500.
You can buy insurance at the airport above that (although I never have).
Someone said earlier that you have to have an ATA case to buy airport
insurance...I've never heard that before, but it's quite possibly true.
Lumpy has stated previously that he just buys instrument insurance on an
annual basis, checks his guitars in flight cases, and doesn't worry about
it. That sounds like a pretty good idea to me, if you're going to travel
with valuable instruments.
--
Michael Pugh
From: MKarlo <mkarlo@aol...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: 20 Mar 2002 22:50:57 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
In article <<0A02108B2ECFB875.8E7230AAA9830A64.40C8F133296CDCAF@lp...>>,
"No Busking" <<nobusking@yahoo...>> writes:
>Most of the time, you'll be fine. You can improve your odds by packing
>newspaper or socks tightly under the headstock to prevent it from snapping
>off if the instrument is dropped. Make sure that all parts of the
>instrument fit snug in the case...again, use underwear or socks to firm it
>up if it's loose.
>
Another idea which I tried when shipping my guitars is putting a large roll of
toilet paper under the headstock. Get the oversized roll (the only way to go
in my household of six!) and remove paper to size. Makes a perfect, tight
little cushion. As an added bonus, you'll have a spare roll for those trips
into third world countries. Although, you'll probably get some unusual looks
if you open the case to check your baby at the airport, I'm sure.
Be sure to cushion the area around the neck/body joint too.
Mr. Wipple
From: John Williams <johndwilliams@qwest...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:57:18 -0800
Your guitar is NOT safe in any case.
1) Find an easy-to-replace instrument in the lowest price-bracket that is
serviceable for what you play.
2) Put it in the best, ATA-approved case you can get, with your name and
hometown in BIG letters on the outside. Lock the case. If it gets stolen
and the thief happens to get questioned (unlikely, but you gotta hope), no
key and the wrong name on the outside would be hard to explain.
If you have to move an expensive, boutique, instrument a large distance,
consider shipping UPS, FedEx, etc. with lots of insurance.
When I traveled extensively with a Tele, I used to remove the strings,
unscrew the neck, and pack it in a normal sized suitcase.
--
John Williams
http://www.mp3.com/handpicked
"TarBabyTunes" <<tarbabytunes@aol...>> wrote in message
news:<20020320110639.14591.00002642@mb-da...>...
>
> This has been a really interesting thread, and thanks to all who have
> contributed.
>
> Now... The overwhelming majority have recommended checking the guitar
thru to
> the destination, and many have recommended aftermarket cases (e.g., the
> Calton).
>
> I have a couple more questions to perhaps put a finer point on this
matter:
>
> 1) How safe from damage is a guitar when checked thru baggage handling on
> domestic &/or international flights?
>
> 2) Can this be done with a standard, good quality hardshell case, or only
with
> a sturdier after-mkt case?
>
> I'm sure there are horror stories about instruments being destroyed, but
I'd
> rather avoid the gory details for a statistical sort of overview, as in
'how
> likely is it that an instrument will be damaged by airline baggage
handling?'
>
> Please don't scare me with details of splintered lovelies? <G>
>
> Thanks,
>
> stv
From: robohop <rjand@ix...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 06:30:50 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
I fly several times a year and take my "secondary guitar" with me in a
standard skb hard shell case. (My trips usually include hops into
small airports and islands as well as big major airports). I tape the
latches shut with packing tape and I've never had any damage of any
sort.
This is not to disagree necessarily with any of the points made in the
thread, just adding that I've spent the last 5 or 6 years just closing
my eyes and checking them and never had a problem.
Your results may vary,
best,
rob anderson
"John Williams" <<johndwilliams@qwest...>> wrote in message news:<ZEem8.179$<TZ3.143410@news...>>...
> Your guitar is NOT safe in any case.
>
> 1) Find an easy-to-replace instrument in the lowest price-bracket that is
> serviceable for what you play.
>
> 2) Put it in the best, ATA-approved case you can get, with your name and
> hometown in BIG letters on the outside. Lock the case. If it gets stolen
> and the thief happens to get questioned (unlikely, but you gotta hope), no
> key and the wrong name on the outside would be hard to explain.
>
> If you have to move an expensive, boutique, instrument a large distance,
> consider shipping UPS, FedEx, etc. with lots of insurance.
>
> When I traveled extensively with a Tele, I used to remove the strings,
> unscrew the neck, and pack it in a normal sized suitcase.
>
> --
>
> John Williams
> http://www.mp3.com/handpicked
>
>
> "TarBabyTunes" <<tarbabytunes@aol...>> wrote in message
> news:<20020320110639.14591.00002642@mb-da...>...
> >
> > This has been a really interesting thread, and thanks to all who have
> > contributed.
> >
> > Now... The overwhelming majority have recommended checking the guitar
> thru to
> > the destination, and many have recommended aftermarket cases (e.g., the
> > Calton).
> >
> > I have a couple more questions to perhaps put a finer point on this
> matter:
> >
> > 1) How safe from damage is a guitar when checked thru baggage handling on
> > domestic &/or international flights?
> >
> > 2) Can this be done with a standard, good quality hardshell case, or only
> with
> > a sturdier after-mkt case?
> >
> > I'm sure there are horror stories about instruments being destroyed, but
> I'd
> > rather avoid the gory details for a statistical sort of overview, as in
> 'how
> > likely is it that an instrument will be damaged by airline baggage
> handling?'
> >
> > Please don't scare me with details of splintered lovelies? <G>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > stv
From: Tom Loredo <loredo@astro...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:07:22 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
David Wilcox had his 1st Olson stolen from the baggage handling area
at Denver Int'l airport (probably...) several years ago. He was
bumped from a flight, and his checked baggage, including his guitar,
flew on without him. The guitar just vanished, and it's suspected
someone picked it up from the baggage area in Denver. This happened
in March 1997.
The nightmare of being bumped and having my guitar fly away
without me is something I don't even want to think about!
This raises an interesting question: With all the current rules
about passengers having to fly with their baggage, if you get
bumped from a flight, does your baggage still go without you?
Peace,
Tom Loredo
From: CineStudy <cinestudy@aol...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: 21 Mar 2002 20:44:30 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Under flight rules you baggage is supposed to be on the same plane, but believe
me this is not the case. My mother flew to meet me in Bologna Italy over the
Christmas and it took three days for her bags to arrive from Frankfurt. If your
conection is less then 45 minutes don't count on it. And remember the airlines
only pay for lost baggage by the pound! If you miss or are late on a connecting
flight the chance is you guitar will be on another. There is no easy answer to
this. i believe there is a musians recovery plane that will get you bag to you
in 24 hours if you pay for that service.
Rick
From: Stonker7 <stonker7@aol...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: 24 Mar 2002 21:40:18 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>And remember the airlines
>only pay for lost baggage by the pound!
Rick,
There is a possibility your information might be incorrect. If you can provide
the airline with verifiable information stating the value of the property lost,
they should reimburse you the value of your property up to the stated amount on
your ticket.
Fred Albert
From: Stonker7 <stonker7@aol...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - Checking it thru?
Date: 24 Mar 2002 21:32:09 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>This raises an interesting question: With all the current rules
>about passengers having to fly with their baggage, if you get
>bumped from a flight, does your baggage still go without you?
Tom,
As I understand it, in the US and all US carriers wherever they may be in the
world, require all bags to travel with the passengers. This is because it is a
FAA reg which applies to all flights within the US, it's territories and all US
carriers. I know nothing about other counties airlines.
I do know if you get "bumped", your bag will be removed from the cargo area.
This takes a while and causes delays since a human being actually goes into the
cargo area of the aircraft to find "your" bag. But safety takes priority here,
not on time departure.
There are instances however, where a bag will travel without the passenger. But
only if it has been verified that the passenger has absolutely no way of
"planning" their absense from the aircraft, such as showing up conviently
"late" for a connecting flight.
Fred Albert
| flying with guitar - yes or no? (OT follow-up) [2] |
|---|
From: Julian Templeman <julian@templeman-consulting...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - yes or no? (OT follow-up)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:11:08 +0000
Organization: Customer of gradwell dot com Ltd
Dan said...
>I'd rate AK Airlines excellent
>whenever they have meaningful competition in their market, but in the
>several times I've been exposed to their monopoly corporate behavior in the
>Fairbanks and other markets, it ABSOLUTELY STINKS in terms of price, service
>and on-time record. Stinks very, very badly and I would use anyone else if
>I had the chance.
<rant>
I run into this a lot.
There's a small(ish) airline over here in the UK that says they want
to encourage business travellers, but who sets the weight limit for
carry on baggage to slightly less than the average laptop in a carry
case. I've lost count of the number of weary, late Sunday night
arguments with the check-in (uncomplimentary term deleted) who is
determined to check in my laptop so the luggage gorillas can dump it
on the tarmac. Now I take the laptop out, hand them the near-empty
case, they weigh it and hand it back. I then put laptop back in and
mosey along to the plane.
So if they're so hot on hand baggage, how come I'm always in line
behind the guy with a laptop bag, a pilot's case and a folding suit
carrier, which they have somehow missed?
</rant>
And Monsewer No Busking also said....
>There's a particular brand of gate agent that really LIKES this kinda
>thing (which is a real shame, because most of the gate agents I meet
>go out of their way to be pleasant and helpful, even in difficult
>circumstances).
Oh yes indeed, and I've met them on many occasions. I'm always very,
very polite to gate staff (almost as polite as I am to US Immigration
people :-) lest my luggage gets consigned to oblivion.
julian
Templeman Consulting Limited
London and North Wales
http://www.templeman-consulting.co.uk
From: gorblimey <persistent_offender@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar - yes or no? (OT follow-up)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:06:46 GMT
Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder)
Julian Templeman <<julian@templeman-consulting...>> wrote in message
news:<svih9ukmso138nf8r1uhhnhtf23ejfig32@4ax...>...
>
> And Monsewer No Busking also said....
>
> >There's a particular brand of gate agent that really LIKES this kinda
> >thing (which is a real shame, because most of the gate agents I meet
> >go out of their way to be pleasant and helpful, even in difficult
> >circumstances).
>
> Oh yes indeed, and I've met them on many occasions. I'm always very,
> very polite to gate staff (almost as polite as I am to US Immigration
> people :-) lest my luggage gets consigned to oblivion.
>
> julian
I guess I'm heading for a fall...
I have made 18 transatlantic flights over the last 2 years and dozens of
shorter ones, many times with a guitar. The first time I took one it was in
a cardboard case and I checked it (knew no better) it arrived unharmed.
Since then whenever I have had a guitar with me in a big plane I have had it
in a gigbag in the locker.
I've never even been challenged at the gate.
Pete (really good looking and dead sexy)
| traveling with guitar - a success story [5] |
|---|
From: chaya <chaya@san...>
Subject: traveling with guitar - a success story
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:58:26 GMT
Organization: RoadRunner - West
Before I left for EC5, someone asked about checking a guitar through. All I
can say is that thanks to the baggage handlers at American and the Calton
case, my guitar did great.
Of the four flights I was on, I only got to see the guitar loaded once - the
first flight out of San Diego. I was watching the baggage guy bouncing all
the suitcases on the ramp, and then he got to my guitar. He gently put it on
the ramp. If there wasn't such security right now, I would have tried to
bang the window to let him know how thankful I was.
When I got to Richmond, my guitar was the first piece out on the conveyor
belt - obviously someone made sure it arrived safely because the rest of my
luggage didn't come out till later in the process. I wish I had as nice a
story about arriving back in LA (long story) - but I did shove people aside
as the guitar came down the ramp to make sure I caught it before it hit
bottom.
A full review of the new guitar will come later.
csj
From: John Sorell <jsorell@infi...>
Subject: Re: traveling with guitar - a success story
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:14:55 -0700
Susan,
I carried my Dunwell in a Calton on United for TX-2. On the trip there, the
agent said there would be no problem carrying it on. On the return trip the
agent said I would have to check it. I demanded to gate check it, so he put
a baggage sticker on it and I carried it to the gate. When the flight
boarded I wrapped the baggage sticker around the handle and covered it with
my carrying hand. No one ever said a thing to me as I walked on board the
plane. I carried it on another United flight in January. I now check my bags
at the curbside check in to avoid the long lines at the ticket counter and
carry my guitar to the gate. If confronted I will demand a gate check. So
far, no one has said a thing.
I carried my Larivee Parlor to Boulder this week...no problem with it. Also,
I found the entire Parlor and gig bag fit in the Blue Heron gig bag I bought
from you. I'll be carrying it back to Seattle like that tomorrow. One less
thing to pay the movers for.
John
"chaya" <<chaya@san...>> wrote in message
news:SSmo8.547$<zN.160632@twister...>...
> Before I left for EC5, someone asked about checking a guitar through. All
I
> can say is that thanks to the baggage handlers at American and the Calton
> case, my guitar did great.
>
> Of the four flights I was on, I only got to see the guitar loaded once -
the
> first flight out of San Diego. I was watching the baggage guy bouncing all
> the suitcases on the ramp, and then he got to my guitar. He gently put it
on
> the ramp. If there wasn't such security right now, I would have tried to
> bang the window to let him know how thankful I was.
>
> When I got to Richmond, my guitar was the first piece out on the conveyor
> belt - obviously someone made sure it arrived safely because the rest of
my
> luggage didn't come out till later in the process. I wish I had as nice a
> story about arriving back in LA (long story) - but I did shove people
aside
> as the guitar came down the ramp to make sure I caught it before it hit
> bottom.
>
> A full review of the new guitar will come later.
>
> csj
>
>
From: Larry Pattis <LarryPattis@NoSpam...>
Subject: Re: traveling with guitar - a success story
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:39:53 -0700
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <<20020327133534.28302.00000454@mb-fe...>>, Hojo2x
<<hojo2x@aol...>> wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
> > I haven't flown in the past 6 months. Are most airports still
> allowing>curbside check-in? I'd heard that they aren't in New York.
>
>
> I was told that curbside check-in is no longer allowed at any US airports. I
> traveled last week and saw none at these airports: Anchorage, San Jose, KC, or
> Chicago O'Hare.
>
>
>
> Wade Hampton Miller
> Chugiak, Alaska
We DO have curbside check-in here in Salt Lake City, for Delta (we're a
Delta hub), and all of the other airlines. I believe that Denver also
has curbside, my wife is there on business right now.....
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
From: Steve <sefstrat@aol...>
Subject: Re: traveling with guitar - a success story
Date: 27 Mar 2002 19:02:30 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
<< I haven't flown in the past 6 months. Are most airports still allowing
curbside check-in? I'd heard that they aren't in New York.
Steve>>
They are again in upstate NY.
SEFSTRAT
music webpage: http://members.aol.com/sefstrat/index.html/sefpage.html
From: Steve <sefstrat@aol...>
Subject: Re: traveling with guitar - a success story
Date: 27 Mar 2002 19:05:49 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> I haven't flown in the past 6 months. Are most airports still allowing
>curbside check-in? I'd heard that they aren't in New York.
Upstate NY allows it in Rochester/Syracuse/Buffalo.
ORD (Chicago O'Hare) has curbside check-in again---at least I know United does.
SEFSTRAT
music webpage: http://members.aol.com/sefstrat/index.html/sefpage.html
| Another flying with guitar success [5] |
|---|
From: John Sorell <jwsorell@REMOVETHISattbi...>
Subject: Another flying with guitar success
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 23:18:54 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband
I carried a OO 12 fret in a gigbag onboard USAirways this past week without
a problem. None of the agents or attendants said a word about it. I got a
little nervous when one passenger started to throw a heavy wheelie bag into
the overhead next to the guitar. I asked him to use caution and he was cool
about it.
It was great having a nice guitar along to keep me company. I haven't played
my OO in a long time. It was good to get reacquainted...what a fine guitar!
No wonder Greg Thomas likes his OO so much.
John
From: Larry Pattis <LarryPattis@NoSpam...>
Subject: Re: Another flying with guitar success
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:58:29 -0600
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
John Sorell <<jwsorell@REMOVETHISattbi...>> wrote:
> I carried a OO 12 fret in a gigbag onboard USAirways this past week without
> a problem. None of the agents or attendants said a word about it. I got a
> little nervous when one passenger started to throw a heavy wheelie bag into
> the overhead next to the guitar. I asked him to use caution and he was cool
> about it.
>
> It was great having a nice guitar along to keep me company. I haven't played
> my OO in a long time. It was good to get reacquainted...what a fine guitar!
> No wonder Greg Thomas likes his OO so much.
>
> John
I flew to the East Coast and back for my recent tour with El McMeen,
and walked on-board with an OM sized Calton case on both legs of the
journey.
No problems whatsoever.
Delta.
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
From: John Sorell <jwsorell@REMOVETHISattbi...>
Subject: Re: Another flying with guitar success
Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 00:15:00 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband
Larry,
I did the same when I flew to TX-2. I carried a Dunwell OOO in a Calton on
board. Only problem I had was with the agent (United) in San Antonio. He
said I will have to check the guitar. I demanded to gate check it (I think I
told this story not too long ago....forgive me). He put a baggage tag on the
handle. When it came time to board I just wrapped the tag around the handle
and walked on board like it was something I do every day. No one said a word
except for one attendant who asked if I was going to play for them. I made
the usual comment about not wanting to get tossed out at 30,000 feet. You
surely would have gotten bumped to first class.
John
"Larry Pattis" <<LarryPattis@NoSpam...>> wrote in message
news:110520021758295270%<LarryPattis@NoSpam...>...
> John Sorell <<jwsorell@REMOVETHISattbi...>> wrote:
>
> > I carried a OO 12 fret in a gigbag onboard USAirways this past week
without
> > a problem. None of the agents or attendants said a word about it. I got
a
> > little nervous when one passenger started to throw a heavy wheelie bag
into
> > the overhead next to the guitar. I asked him to use caution and he was
cool
> > about it.
> >
> > It was great having a nice guitar along to keep me company. I haven't
played
> > my OO in a long time. It was good to get reacquainted...what a fine
guitar!
> > No wonder Greg Thomas likes his OO so much.
> >
> > John
>
>
>
> I flew to the East Coast and back for my recent tour with El McMeen,
> and walked on-board with an OM sized Calton case on both legs of the
> journey.
>
> No problems whatsoever.
>
> Delta.
>
> --
> Larry Pattis
> LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
>
> http://www.LarryPattis.com
From: John Sorell <jwsorell@REMOVETHISattbi...>
Subject: Re: Another flying with guitar success
Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 11:05:04 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband
I had a trip in January where I got singled out in the boarding line to get
the "random" search. I was carrying a Larivee Parlor in a gig bag. The guy
was very nice and apologetic about the necessity. He asked all the required
security questions and finally said, "I have one last question. Can you play
Smoke On The Water?"
John
ps...when I take Lola with me I make sure she goes with the checked baggage.
"Greg Thomas" <<gjthomas@earthlink...>> wrote in message
news:s3pD8.5308$<Nt3.394929@newsread2...>...
> Okay, I want to know how you guys really pull this off. I had to fly to
St
> Louis last month, got stopped at the gate, as I was boarding, luggage
> searched, off with the shoes, take off the belt, open your shirt. I was
half
> expecting some toothless San Quentinite to ask me to spend the night with
> him. Happened on the return flight as well. A few weeks ago I was coming
> back from Detroit and had the pleasure of flexing my pecs at the gate as
> the security "lady" waved her wand at me, while another one unfolded my
> dirty underwear for everyone in the free world to see. Geez, I almost get
> THE FULL BODY CAVITY SEARCH every time I fly, and you guys just waltz on
> board WITH YOUR GUITARS!!!??????? Fess up, who do you know?
>
> Greg
>
>
> "Larry Pattis" <<LarryPattis@NoSpam...>> wrote in message
> news:110520021758295270%<LarryPattis@NoSpam...>...
> > John Sorell <<jwsorell@REMOVETHISattbi...>> wrote:
> >
> > > I carried a OO 12 fret in a gigbag onboard USAirways this past week
> without
> > > a problem. None of the agents or attendants said a word about it. I
got
> a
> > > little nervous when one passenger started to throw a heavy wheelie bag
> into
> > > the overhead next to the guitar. I asked him to use caution and he was
> cool
> > > about it.
> > >
> > > It was great having a nice guitar along to keep me company. I haven't
> played
> > > my OO in a long time. It was good to get reacquainted...what a fine
> guitar!
> > > No wonder Greg Thomas likes his OO so much.
> > >
> > > John
> >
> >
> >
> > I flew to the East Coast and back for my recent tour with El McMeen,
> > and walked on-board with an OM sized Calton case on both legs of the
> > journey.
> >
> > No problems whatsoever.
> >
> > Delta.
> >
> > --
> > Larry Pattis
> > LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
> >
> > http://www.LarryPattis.com
> >
>
>
From: Michael DeLalla/Falling Mountain Music <delalla@fallingmountain...>
Subject: Re: Another flying with guitar success
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 00:56:12 GMT
Organization: Verio
Maybe it's the eager, anticipatory attitude I take when I say "You're gonna
search me, right?"
;-)
I've still never had a problem carrying on a guitar. This last tour I did,
on one leg of the trip I was asked to remove my shoes, and they did open the
case and spend a few minutes trying to figure out what was making their
machinery go off. Some demagnetizing-like wand thing eventually cleared me
and my guitar, onward with no problem.
I head West again this fall; I'll keep you posted. My feeling is, the law of
averages will catch up to me; therefore, I always go prepared to gate-check
the guitar. So far, so good....
--
Michael DeLalla/Falling Mountain Music
http://www.fallingmountain.com
"Greg Thomas" <<gjthomas@earthlink...>> wrote in message
news:s3pD8.5308$<Nt3.394929@newsread2...>...
> Okay, I want to know how you guys really pull this off. I had to fly to
St
> Louis last month, got stopped at the gate, as I was boarding, luggage
> searched, off with the shoes, take off the belt, open your shirt. I was
half
> expecting some toothless San Quentinite to ask me to spend the night with
> him. Happened on the return flight as well. A few weeks ago I was coming
> back from Detroit and had the pleasure of flexing my pecs at the gate as
> the security "lady" waved her wand at me, while another one unfolded my
> dirty underwear for everyone in the free world to see. Geez, I almost get
> THE FULL BODY CAVITY SEARCH every time I fly, and you guys just waltz on
> board WITH YOUR GUITARS!!!??????? Fess up, who do you know?
>
> Greg
>
>
> "Larry Pattis" <<LarryPattis@NoSpam...>> wrote in message
> news:110520021758295270%<LarryPattis@NoSpam...>...
> > John Sorell <<jwsorell@REMOVETHISattbi...>> wrote:
> >
> > > I carried a OO 12 fret in a gigbag onboard USAirways this past week
> without
> > > a problem. None of the agents or attendants said a word about it. I
got
> a
> > > little nervous when one passenger started to throw a heavy wheelie bag
> into
> > > the overhead next to the guitar. I asked him to use caution and he was
> cool
> > > about it.
> > >
> > > It was great having a nice guitar along to keep me company. I haven't
> played
> > > my OO in a long time. It was good to get reacquainted...what a fine
> guitar!
> > > No wonder Greg Thomas likes his OO so much.
> > >
> > > John
> >
> >
> >
> > I flew to the East Coast and back for my recent tour with El McMeen,
> > and walked on-board with an OM sized Calton case on both legs of the
> > journey.
> >
> > No problems whatsoever.
> >
> > Delta.
> >
> > --
> > Larry Pattis
> > LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
> >
> > http://www.LarryPattis.com
> >
>
>
| Let's collect our airplane information |
|---|
From: Hussman <dfhussey1@attbinospan...>
Subject: Let's collect our airplane information
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:27:37 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband
Having been traveling a little with the guitar lately, and considering how
often people ask about traveling with the guitar, I'd like to compile a list
of aircraft that has ample room in overhead to store a dreadnaught acoustic
guitar case, or a list of locations in aircraft without ample room.
So far, I have the following, I've flown more, but I've forgotten some or
didn't travel with the guitar. I think the airline is needed, they all have
different configurations.
United Boeing 737--Overhead usable
United Airbus 320--Overhead usable
United Boeing 777--I couldn't fit mine in the overhead, but I could put it
on the floor in front of the bulkhead between business and coach.
American Boeing 737--Overhead usable
If you'd like to add to the list, mail me at dfhussey1 "at" attbi.com, when
I receive enough to post, I will.
Also, one note, I was told at security in Tulsa, OK to tell the check in
counter to pre-warn security that a guitar was coming through, I had to wait
five minutes for them to let me through because the case was bigger than the
X-ray (they wouldn't lift the shroud until they received confirmation from
the airlines.
Happy flying,
Dennis
| New guitar carry-on rules with Delta.... [11] |
|---|
From: Jay Adair <jabs@peoplepc...>
Subject: New guitar carry-on rules with Delta....
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:29:08 -0700
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
My wife, a 20 year flight attendant with Delta, just informed today that
guitars are no longer able to be carried on the plane by passengers. It was
always an "iffy" proposition, but now they are not supposed to be allowed
past the security checkpoint in the hands of the traveling public,
period.....which also eliminates the ability to "gate-check" the guitar -
which bypasses the airport's luggage transport system and usually resulted
in an agent hand carrying the guitar to the lower storage area of the jet.
Unknown if this policy is shared with other major carriers....
Jay (Have to start buying 'em closer to home)
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: New guitar carry-on rules with Delta....
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 00:28:29 GMT
Andy asked:
> I'm just curious......"not supposed to be
> allowed past the security checkpoint" ........there's more than one
carrier
> that goes through that particular checkpoint.....it's not exclusive to
> Delta...... no?
Exactly.
A Delta ticket agent can ask you to check your guitar while you're checking
luggage, but they don't have any control over what goes through the security
checkpoints (most of which are manned by federal employees these days).
FWIW...I did four flights on Northwest last week carrying a dreadnaught in a
hardshell case. No one gave me any trouble at all about carrying it on,
although the security agent at Dulles confiscated my wire clippers. It was
a silly mistake on my part to leave them in the case...I apologized, and he
was very courteous.
Still...always assume that you're going to have to check your guitar,
because it WILL happen at some point. My answer is to carry an instrument
that's not too valuable to lose.
--
Michael Pugh
From: Deverett2 <deverett2@aol...>
Subject: Re: New guitar carry-on rules with Delta....
Date: 16 Jul 2002 02:53:16 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Hi Michael and all,
I flew out of Dulles a few weeks ago, and ALL of the luggage that had been
checked went to Indianapolis instead of our Hartford destination - I was very
thankful not to have my guitar with me, which had been a tough decision. When
I got my luggage back it had been tossed and beat up pretty badly - many things
in my suitcase had been broken/crushed. Again, I was so thankful that I hadn't
taken my guitar, even with its Calton case - though I have heard of happy
endings in such situations.
Just read in the newspaper about some guy with a gun in a guitar case...
Donna
From: Jay Adair <jabs@peoplepc...>
Subject: Re: New guitar carry-on rules with Delta....
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 06:32:57 -0700
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
"Amostagain" <<amostagain@aol...>> wrote in message
news:<20020715201429.24889.00000030@mb-ft...>...
> Jay Adair:
> << My wife, a 20 year flight attendant with Delta, just informed today
that
> guitars are no longer able to be carried on the plane by passengers. It
was
> always an "iffy" proposition, but now they are not supposed to be allowed
> past the security checkpoint in the hands of the traveling public,>>
>
> Well that sucks and of course I've checked it out with the wife's cousin
who's
> been a Delta flight attendant for 20 something years also and who also
takes a
> Baby T*ylor onboard..but she was off today & didn't see anything in her
company
> e-mails which doesn't mean squat but I'm just curious......"not supposed
to be
> allowed past the security checkpoint" ........there's more than one
carrier
> that goes through that particular checkpoint.....it's not exclusive to
> Delta...... no? I'm not disagreeing at all Im just wondering.
>
Supposedly, the policy is 2 weeks old - probably a July 1st start....
Since checkpoints are manned by the Feds now, it would seem to be a
all-carrier plan - but based on other's experiences, this doesn't seem the
case.
She was given this info in a company meeting at D/FW, unsure where it is "in
writing"......
I have flown to Boston, Nashville, and West Palm to buy guitars and have
always been lucky enough to have a flight attendant allow me (or her) carry
the guitar on-board and stash it in the coat closet up front. I guess those
days are gone...
Jay
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: New guitar carry-on rules with Delta....
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:08:16 GMT
Rudi wrote:
> And anyway, to be honest I am all for banning lugging guitars on as
> hand luggage. Plenty of folks like us are basically honest people
> (except Tom from Texas), but these days the name of the game in air
> travel is safety; and I'm willing to take the risk of checking in my
> guitar if it means that lunatics have one less means of smuggling
> something nasty onboard.
Well...
With the X-ray machines they get a pretty good view of what's in the cases,
and they asked me to open my case and show them my guitar on a couple of the
flights. A large gun or bomb could be very easily detected...there's
nothing you could smuggle in a guitar case that couldn't also be hidden in a
purse, briefcase, or laptop case.
There may be lots of OTHER reasons to keep people from carrying guitars
onboard...like limited overhead storage capacity, threat of the instrument
falling out of the bin, etc., but those concerns aren't just limited to
guitar cases. I still see people carry on HUGE and heavy suitcases, and
hoist them over everyone's head like a hay bale.
If they want to crack down on guitar cases (which are, admittedly, generally
larger than carry-on guidelines), they need to apply the logic equally to
all baggage types. My impression is that this is generally the case. On
the few occasions that I've been prevented from carrying my guitar onboard,
I've noticed them monitoring other carry-on baggage as well...fair enough.
I'm all for keeping air travel safe, and I dutifully check my guitar
whenever asked, but guitar cases are no more dangerous than other pieces of
luggage.
BTW...I was subject to one of their "random searches" on the last flight.
It sure would be nice if they'd provide a screen or something to step
behind...it was a VERY thorough search (more than I've ever had when setting
off the alarm at the security gate). I find it a little humiliating to be
poked, patted-down, and spread eagle in front of my fellow passengers. They
even searched the inside of the waist on my jeans.
Of course, some people might like that sort of thing. ;-)
--
Michael Pugh
From: Hussman <dfhussey1@attbinospan...>
Subject: Re: New guitar carry-on rules with Delta....
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 04:23:53 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband
Really huh? That explains why security at Tulsa said that I had to confirm
the guitar coming through with the airline, I was flying with United, they
said fine.
Yet another reason for me not to fly Delta, a.k.a Doesn't Even Leave The
Airport (they're not that bad, but I've been routed through Atlanta way too
often to enjoy it).
Dennis
"Jay Adair" <<jabs@peoplepc...>> wrote in message
news:<uj6nia77lt52c3@corp...>...
> My wife, a 20 year flight attendant with Delta, just informed today that
> guitars are no longer able to be carried on the plane by passengers. It
was
> always an "iffy" proposition, but now they are not supposed to be allowed
> past the security checkpoint in the hands of the traveling public,
> period.....which also eliminates the ability to "gate-check" the guitar -
> which bypasses the airport's luggage transport system and usually resulted
> in an agent hand carrying the guitar to the lower storage area of the jet.
>
> Unknown if this policy is shared with other major carriers....
>
> Jay (Have to start buying 'em closer to home)
>
From: whirligig <look@this...>
Subject: Re: New guitar carry-on rules with Delta....
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:26:10 -0700
On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:28:46 -0700, Z. Skarland wrote
(in message <<5fcae8e1.0207191628.27ed5b9e@posting...>>):
> [...]
>
> I'm not following you here Rudi. How is a guitar case any more
> dangerous than a garmet bag or other carry on?
I'd see it as a hard case issue. In a hard landing the overhead catches could
come undone, so really it's a hard and/or heavy things landing on your head
issue. A guitar in a soft case isn't so lethal.
> I think airport safety
> rules need to make sense, not arbitrary for no reason.
I'm absolutely with you there.
> Show me how
> banning guitar cases makes any sense at all from a security standpoint
At the risk of catching flak I caught before, I think the issues are still
really about quicker pax loading/unloading and reduced gate time. If the
airlines lobby the feds to make the rules about cabin baggage tighter, all
said airlines have to do is wring their hands and say it's not their fault
your guitar gets buggered/lost whilst getting faster aircraft turnaround and
reducing the time the plane isn't earning.
From: whirligig <look@this...>
Subject: Re: New guitar carry-on rules with Delta....
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:33:20 -0700
On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:26:10 -0700, whirligig wrote
(in message <<01HW.B95E1852000155420C795B10@news...>>):
> [....]
Pardon me, forgot name and sig
Adrian
--
www.adrianlegg.com
>
>
From: Big Guy <brosseaut@sbcglobal...>
Subject: Re: New guitar carry-on rules with Delta....
Date: 21 Jul 2002 03:07:34 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
"Hussman" <<dfhussey1@attbinospan...>> wrote in message news:<sj6Z8.562674$<cQ3.52504@sccrnsc...>>...
> Really huh? That explains why security at Tulsa said that I had to confirm
> the guitar coming through with the airline, I was flying with United, they
> said fine.
>
> Yet another reason for me not to fly Delta, a.k.a Doesn't Even Leave The
> Airport (they're not that bad, but I've been routed through Atlanta way too
> often to enjoy it).
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
> "Jay Adair" <<jabs@peoplepc...>> wrote in message
> news:<uj6nia77lt52c3@corp...>...
> > My wife, a 20 year flight attendant with Delta, just informed today that
> > guitars are no longer able to be carried on the plane by passengers. It
> was
> > always an "iffy" proposition, but now they are not supposed to be allowed
> > past the security checkpoint in the hands of the traveling public,
> > period.....which also eliminates the ability to "gate-check" the guitar -
> > which bypasses the airport's luggage transport system and usually resulted
> > in an agent hand carrying the guitar to the lower storage area of the jet.
> >
> > Unknown if this policy is shared with other major carriers....
> >
> > Jay (Have to start buying 'em closer to home)
Southwest just let me carry on a Larrivee Parlor and put it in the
overhead bin. Dallas to Orlando and back. Had a pair of non-pointy
pliers and, with much internal discussion, they let me keep them,
Tom
Dallas
> >
From: Hans Andersson <handers@tulane...>
Subject: Re: New guitar carry-on rules with Delta....
Date: 21 Jul 2002 09:42:54 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
FWIW, I flew on July 16 New orleans-Philly-Albany with US Air. Carried
my Froggy on both planes with no one batting an eyelash. I dond't
think this is currently an all-carriers policy but that could change.
I agree that a guitar is no more of a risk than any other carry-on and
I would cetainly make that case to co. pres if this gets expanded.
They cannot afford to lose the biz right now but none of us can afford
to have poor security.
How long can it take to check carryons adequately? 30-60sec/person?
We'll just have to get to the gate earlier, which is where the
checking could be performed. Added expense for additional personnel
but flying is pretty cheap these days. Something has to give if the
Xray is not adequate security.
hans
From: whirligig <look@this...>
Subject: Re: New guitar carry-on rules with Delta....
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 1:57:49 +0100
On Sun, 21 Jul 2002 3:07:34 +0100, Big Guy wrote
(in message <<129b1f80.0207210207.170e5b2@posting...>>):
>[....]
>
> Southwest just let me carry on a Larrivee Parlor and put it in the
> overhead bin. Dallas to Orlando and back. Had a pair of non-pointy
> pliers and, with much internal discussion, they let me keep them,
>
No probs as usual with United with my cut-down 777 overhead sized guitar. No
sharps allowed in hand-baggage advertised (and anticipated) at Heathrow on
the way out, and my cute little 2" fold-up pliers with pull-out screwdriver
doodads (no cutting blades) went through unquestioned. On the return, they
were pilfered at LAX by some kid in security, unless confiscating without a
receipt somehow isn't pilfering. Still, I'm glad to know he did his bit to
keep the plane a little safer from terrorism.
The plastic cutlery in steerage class was softer than in business (got the
mileage upgrade coming home) - clearly steerage harbours more psychotics.
However, we got real glasses in business, and were allowed on with a big
enough duty free glass bottle to make a very nasty weapon.
Adrian
--
www.adrianlegg.com
| Flying Geetars once again |
|---|
From: Amostagain <amostagain@aol...>
Subject: Flying Geetars once again
Date: 23 Jul 2002 14:03:41 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Just like to say that I just flew Southwest again and my friend's
J-200 in hardshell case had not problem one getting onboard 4 flights. I saw
one attendant stare at it, but that's it.
| Air travel out of tune for musicians |
|---|
From: David Kilpatrick <iconmags2@btconnect...>
Subject: Re: Air travel out of tune for musicians
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:09:48 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Icon Publications Limited
Larry Pattis wrote:
> 09/03/2002
>
> Air travel out of tune for musicians
>
> By Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY
>
> Acoustic guitarist Dimitri Diatchenko says he takes his guitar out in
> the airport lounge and starts to strum.
>
> "I usually get a crowd of folks who dig the entertainment while they
> wait. Airline employees all hear ... how good I am, and they let me go
> and put my guitar in the overhead. That's that."
>
If I do this, they will probably insist the guitar is stored in the
baggage hold without a case, marked PLEASE USE ME TO STAND ON WHEN
GETTING BAGS DOWN FROM THE TOP OF THE PILE.
David
| flying with guitar (near) misadventure [2] |
|---|
From: Vern93 <vern93@comcast...>
Subject: flying with guitar (near) misadventure
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 14:57:11 GMT
Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing
I went from Nashville to Washington DC about two weeks ago. For carry
one, I had my Yamaha Silent Guitar (SLG1000) in it's AR-15 style case.
I had also crammed in an Apple ti-book and an ipod and a paperback or
two.
I expected airport security to freak when they saw that mess under the
scanner, but they buzzed it right through. The plane was a smallish
twin engine "puddle jumper" with very little inside room. The luggage
guy was taking larger carry ons and stowing them in the back.
I gave him my case, and told him my guitar and laptop wear in it, and
asked him to please put it somewhere safe. He seemed very considerate
and after I was seated, he even gave me a "thumbs up." I honestly
believe he did his best.
When I landed in Ronald Reagan, my case didn't show up with the rest of
the carryone stuff. I asked the baggage guy there, and he said "it
didn't have a yellow carry on tag, so we just put it with the rest of
the luggage." (I guess the Nashville forgot to put one on it.)
I said "WHAT!?!?" There were actually several more "?" and "!" but you
get the idea. This soft case didn't have a tag or label of any kind on
it, but had all my fragile stuff I planned to hand carry. Now it
bouncing along somewhere with a steamer chest on top of it on it's way
to the carousel. Ouch!
It actually showed up again, without a scratch. But it was a good
lesson in what can go wrong. I think next time I'll handcuff it to my
wrist.
Dave
From: jc <spamsucks@nospam...>
Subject: Re: flying with guitar (near) misadventure
Date: 8 Sep 2002 21:07:20 -0500
"Vern93" <<vern93@comcast...>> wrote in message
While not all airlines have it available, you should always request a "gate
check" tag for something of value that is forced into the baggage
compartment. This way, you can take to the gate with you (assuming you can
get it through security, of course) and the ramp guys will load it directly
into the cargo compartment and it will be delivered to you at the gate after
arrival. In theory.....
This avoids the trips up and down the conveyer belts and having otherbags stacked on top of it on the trips to and from the baggage area and
aircraft - it does not save it from having things stacked on it in the cargo
compt. itself, but as the gate check bags are usually loaded last (last on,
first off - again, in theory!), at least the chances are somewhat better
that your precious items will make it back to you with the least amount of
damage.
Cheers,
jc
| Air Travel now SCREWED thanks to airheads |
|---|
From: David Kilpatrick <iconmags2@btconnect...>
Subject: Air Travel now SCREWED thanks to airheads
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:05:55 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Icon Publications Limited
News report on BBC Radio, afternoon of 10th: my rephrasing:
A flight from Naples to Gatwick has had to be landed at Rome, to remove
a petrol generator brought on board by two passengers.
The two passengers were.... guitarists. They asked for their instruments
and some 'easily damaged equipment' to be allowed on board. The gate
kindly permitted them to do so, presumably checking over the equipment
and presumably sticking it through the X-ray. Once in the air, their
'electronic equipment' - or so the boarding staff had assume - began to
leak gasoline with the change in temperature, and the passengers altered
the crew.
It turns out they had brought a portable generator to power their amps,
containing 1.5 litres of petroleum fuel.
Now if this one does guitarists ANY GOOD AT ALL I'll be, er, blowed. But
not out of the sky, which could have happened.
With friends like these....
The Naples boarding gate was operated by British Airways staff.
David
| How to insure a guitar for air travel? |
|---|
From: Gregor Martin <gkmartin@ak...>
Subject: Re: How to insure a guitar for air travel?
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:46:54 -0800
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
"Gerry Nelson" wrote:
"A friend is bringing a guitar for me from the US to Australia. Is> there any way I can insure the guitar for the journey? It'll be in a
> Calton case so the main worry is theft. This is the first time I've
> done something like this so any advice would be very much appreciated."
Last time I flew with a guitar I asked at the counter when I checked it
through for #1. special handling( hand carried on and off the aircraft) and
for extra insurance. The airline at the time covered the instrument for
$2,000. I believe it was and offered additional insurance at about one
dollar per thousand of the instruments value as I recall. I'm sure with the
ever changing regulations of late this could be all different now but at
least that was an early post 9/11 experience I had. I hope that helps you.
Gregor Martin>
>
| questions about air travel with guitar - help? [16] |
|---|
From: bethness <batiya5723@cs...>
Subject: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: 24 Nov 2002 22:17:33 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
I am starting to play out in the world of Jewish folk music.
Synagogues are inquiring about flying me out to play a weekend or a
religious service for them (most often shared travel expenses and the
opportunity to sell recordings and try to defray costs a bit).
I am brand-new at all this and don't have the first clue about travelling
with a guitar.
I have heard so many horror stories that I am worried. My guitar isn't top
of the line but it's the only one I own and I cannot afford another if
something bad happens to this one.
How does flying with a guitar work?
How can I alleviate my fears about theft and damage on an extremely
tight budget?
Thanks in advance.
Beth Hamon
From: Hojo2x <hojo2x@aol...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: 25 Nov 2002 08:22:22 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Beth Hamon wrote:
>I am starting to play out in the world of Jewish folk music.
Good for you!
>Synagogues are inquiring about flying me out to play a weekend or a >religious
service for them (most often shared travel expenses and the >opportunity to
sell recordings and try to defray costs a bit).
Well, you must be very good at it.
>I am brand-new at all this and don't have the first clue about travelling
>with a guitar.
Oh, boy, here we go.
>I have heard so many horror stories that I am worried. My guitar isn't top >of
the line but it's the only one I own and I cannot afford another if >something
bad happens to this one.
>
>How does flying with a guitar work?
>How can I alleviate my fears about theft and damage on an extremely >tight
budget?
Well, Beth, what I would recommend you do first is contact your nearest
friendly music store and ask them to hold the next guitar shipping carton that
comes in, for you. Typically these get broken down and disposed of almost
immediately because they take up so much space, but the chances are if you ask
nicely (and keep checking back) you'll be able to nab one for free.
I'm presuming that you already have a standard hardshell case for you guitar -
if not, you should get one. Soft bags and cardboard cases are good only for
keeping the rain off your instrument - they're essentially worthless for any
sort of travel, unless you can carry the guitar onboard and stash it in the
overhead compartment.
Which is getting a LOT tougher to do in the post 9/11 world - you can no longer
count on being able to sweettalk ANY airline employees, and nowadays they don't
even have to make a pretense of being nice to you. So you really shouldn't
count on being able to carry a guitar into the cabin any longer.
Anyway, first pack the instrument in its case, taking care to wrap the peghead
in either a tee shirt or a soft cloth of some kind.
I also loosen the strings, and continue to recommend that others do so, even
though some (not all) manufacturers have switched to recommending that strings
stay at full tension during airline transport.
The reason I continue to recommend loosening the strings is that
A) This is how I've always done it, and I've never had any problems;
and (this is more important)
B) the airlines require it, and if they damage your guitar they're much more
likely to pay up, however sullenly and ungraciously, if you've loosened your
strings before you fly.
Now, me posting this opinion is bound to unleash a torrent of posts from people
taking the opposite line, particularly from one individual who chooses to take
it as a personal insult that I disagree with his logic on this point.
For me, as a pragmatist and a professional musician, the practical implications
of Point B outweigh some of the idealistic and theoretical jibberings I've seen
posted here. When all is said and done, if the guitar gets busted, better to
get paid for it than to let the dirty bastards walk away scot-free....
Having said that, it's your own personal decision whether or not to loosen the
strings.
Let's move on.
After you loosen the strings or NOT, wrap the peghead in a soft cloth, close
the case and latch it, then put the case into the shipping carton, taking up
the extra space in the carton with wadded up newspapers.
Seal it with packing tape, then with a Magic Marker or similar implement write
your name and contact info on the box itself, just in case some genius
re-routes it to Singapore or something.
Carrying these boxes throuhg the airports can be cumbersome, so in order to
make that easier find the balance point of the guitar once it's in the box.
Then take a box knife or Exacto and cut a hand-sized "D" shaped incision into
the side of the box, right at the balance point.
This will serve as a handy dandy carrying handle for you, and if you remember
to bring a roll of packing tape with you in your carry-on you can seal it up
just as it's going into checked luggage.
Does that make sense? If not, e-mail me back and I'll go through it at greater
length for you.
Anyway, this ought to get you started, and the budget for it is basically
nothing, just whatever you have to pay for the packing tape.
Eventually, if this synagogue gig deal takes off for you and you end up flying
a lot, it would make sense for you to invest in a better case. The shipping
carton solution has the very great virtue of being free, or close to it, but it
IS awkward and bulky and sometimes difficult to schlep around, just because of
its sheer SIZE.
When that time comes, spend some money and get yourself a Calton case. These
fiberglass cases are light enough to serve as everyday, normal around-town
cases, but also work wonderfully as flight cases. They cost nearly five
hundred dollars, which is hideous to contemplate, I know, but they're worth it
in terms of protection for your instrument.
Until that time, however, try the shipping carton solution, and see if it works
for you.
Hope this helps.
Wade Hampton Miller
Chugiak, Alaska
From: mcdonald <quetzalcoatl@mad...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 4:55:18 -0700
Organization: Semi-Professional Ontologists Organization & Folderol
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 1:22:22 -0700, Hojo2x wrote:
> I also loosen the strings, and continue to recommend that others do so, even
> though some (not all) manufacturers have switched to recommending that
> strings
> stay at full tension during airline transport.
Wheeeee!
> The reason I continue to recommend loosening the strings is that
>
> A) This is how I've always done it, and I've never had any problems;
Sort of like the people who don't wear seatbelts and have never been injured
in an accident? Or the people who leave their keys in their cars and have
never had them stolen? And what about the people who _don't_ loosen their
strings and have never had any problems?
This is the sort of exercise that is often given to students in courses in
elementary logic or statistics: What conclusions can be drawn from the fact
that Wade loosens his strings and Tom doesn't, and neither has ever had any
problems?
> and (this is more important)
>
> B) the airlines require it, and if they damage your guitar they're much more
> likely to pay up, however sullenly and ungraciously, if you've loosened your
> strings before you fly.
For at least several airlines, this is false. When I looked into this a
couple of years ago and called the corporate offices of various airlines to
find out their policies, some of them had no official policy whatsoever.
Others said that they _recommended_ loosening the strings, but that they did
not require it. When I inquired as to their reasoning for this
recommendation, they didn't have any. I couldn't get through to all the
airlines, but of the ones I reached not a single one required that the
strings be loosened.
> Now, me posting this opinion is bound to unleash a torrent of posts from
> people
> taking the opposite line, particularly from one individual who chooses to
> take
> it as a personal insult that I disagree with his logic on this point.
Once again at least partially false. Frankly I doubt that it's possible for
you to insult me, since your opinions hold no personal value for me.
Furthermore, whether or not you loosen your strings is of no consequence or
concern to me. However, you recommended that a Larrivée owner disregard the
recommendation of Jean Larrivée, the builder of the guitar, as printed in the
booklet that came with the guitar, and go with your recommendation instead.
Given that the guitar owner was clueless and looking for solid advice, given
that your reasoning (i.e. that you've always done it this way and had no
problems) is without merit, and given that your statements about airline
policy were inaccurate, I thought it was irresponsible of you to make such a
recommendation, particularly since going against the recommendations of the
manufacturer could have adverse legal consequences for the hapless guitar
owner (for whose sake I spoke up).
> For me, as a pragmatist and a professional musician, the practical
> implications
> of Point B outweigh some of the idealistic and theoretical jibberings I've
> seen
> posted here. When all is said and done, if the guitar gets busted, better to
> get paid for it than to let the dirty bastards walk away scot-free....
If there were good reasoning behind this it would make sense, but since there
isn't, it doesn't. As I indicated above, for at least several airlines Point
B is nonexistent. But assume that for some airline that I wasn't able to
contact there actually is a requirement that the strings be loosened.
Consider:
1) How much do they need to be loosened? Three whole tones? A half tone? A
microtone? Do all the strings have to be loosened, or is it sufficient just
to loosen 1 or 2? Or 3 or 4? What about the fact that a guitar strung with
extra lights at full tension may have less tension than a guitar with mediums
tuned down a half step? How about alternate tunings such as DADGAD, which are
lower tension than standard tuning? Does a DADGAD tuning have to lowered
further, or is it considered already lowered? My guess is that the
"theoretical" airline policy specifications to which you are referring will
consist of such "jibberings" as to be inadequate for any legal consequences.
2) Given that the guitar is likely to break at the headstock, leaving a chunk
of wood attached to dangling strings, how will anyone know whether or not the
strings were loosened ahead of time?
3) Imagine that this finally goes to court, or at least finally comes to a
lawsuit. It won't, because the airlines would bury you in paper, but just
consider the scenario. You have the policy of the airline, which ultimately
will turn out to be based on something like the telephone call between an
administrative assistant and a 17 year old guitar store clerk, and the
printed booklet and warranty card of the master craftsman who built and sold
the guitar, which states specifically that the strings should not be loosened
when shipping the guitar.
You seem to think that I recommend against loosening strings. I don't, and
never have. I think what you perceive is that whereas you preach your beliefs
to everyone who will listen, I continue to investigate.
On one side we have the "conventional wisdom", you, and a guitar repair
person who posts to this group (can't remember his name at the moment) who
recommend loosening strings for air travel.
On the other side we have the opinions of several structural engineers who
have examined the problem, the opinion of a master craftsman and owner of one
of the largest acoustic guitar companies in North America, plus the de facto
opinions of several other guitar manufacturers (including Taylor, who ships
something like 40,000 guitars per annum with strings at full tension), who
recommend against loosening strings.
For me the issue continues to be unresolved, although the evidence is
beginning to be a bit lopsided. For whatever reason, you seem to have a lot
invested in getting others to follow your advice. My role seems to be to warn
others that as posted your reasoning is unsound, your information is
specious, and that there are other opinions to consider, many of them by
people who are certainly as qualified as you if not much more so.
P.S. For the benefit of Beth (who innocently walked into this mine field) as
well as others who might not be familiar with an alternative viewpoint,
here's what Jean Larrivée has to say:
"Here I would like you to note that it is not my recommendation to take
the tension off the strings when shipping your guitar. This is a
dangerous practice as the peghead with the machine heads and the neck
are by far the heaviest part of the guitar. The string tension serves to
balance this stress along the length of the guitar. Without this
tension, one good jar to the guitar (even with the most careful packing)
and the guitar might well arrive at its destination with the peghead
sheared off at the nut. So remember when you are shipping, leave the
tension on the strings. At least the neck stands a chance this way."
mcd
--
The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
From: whirligig <look@this...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:33:29 +0000
On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 7:25:34 +0000, mcdonald wrote
(in message <<01HW.BA086FFE02C7DF760187F970@news...>>):
> Plausibility without empirical evidence is the basis of witchcraft.
So why do most headstocks snap in the same direction as the string pull?
All the ones I've seen have, and my still fixing them old pal has only seen
two that went the other way. One had the boot-print still on it, and in the
other case, the owner fell down stairs with it strapped on.
Adrian
--
www.adrianlegg.com
From: Hojo2x <hojo2x@aol...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: 26 Nov 2002 14:07:48 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Bob Dorgan wrote:
>Completely removing tension and reducing tension are far different>things....
Good point, Bob, and I suppose I should have been more precise in my own post:
when I travel what I do is reduce tension by lowering the strings three or four
steps. I don't remove ALL tension.
Wade Hampton Miller
Chugiak, Alaska
From: mcdonald <quetzalcoatl@mad...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 1:00:36 -0700
Organization: Semi-Professional Ontologists Organization & Folderol
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 7:10:16 -0700, Dave Hallsworth wrote:
> Better not get on to in-flight humidity / temperature!
Temp on commercial flights shouldn't be an issue for a guitar, particularly
since there's nothing you can do about it, but also because it's never going
to get into a range in which the guitar is in danger.
Humidity is a different story. The inside of an airplane can be very dry, so
it's probably worth it to have some sort of secure humidification system
inside the case. You don't want something that can come loose and damage the
guitar if it bounces around, so I've opted for using a damp sponge in the
accessory compartment. As long as you're not circumnavigating the world
repeatedly using inflight refueling or something, this should keep the
humidity up long enough.
> P.S. Sorry for sending this directly to you mcdonald, but it Microsoft will
> put the buttons so close...!
Those computer newfangled things awfully tricky can be!
mcd
--
At the Telepathic Bar, the bartender always serves you your usual, even on
your first visit.
From: Lumpy <lumpy@digitalcartography...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:26:32 -0700
bethness wrote:
> How does flying with a guitar work?
> How can I alleviate my fears about
> theft and damage on an extremely
> tight budget?
Hi Beth -
I have over 25,000 air miles on one of
my guitars, 10,000 on another. My "fear
alleviation" goes like this -
Insure the guitar. Pro musician insurance,
not homeowners insurance.
Place in a quality case.
Pad the head and neck with
clothing (save space in your luggage).
Check as regular baggage.
Absolute worse case scenario? The guitar gets
stolen/smashed/broken in transit. If so, I'm
out $100 for the deductible on the insurance.
If that happened and I had to finish the gig,
I'd borrow a guitar locally. Or buy the replacement
locally since I'll get reimbursed in a couple weeks
from the musician's insurance.
lumpy
--
My solo recordings are at -
http://lumpy.iuma.com
The rest of Lumpy is at -
http://www.digitalcartography.com
From: Rudi Cheow <newsgroupsKILLSPAM@rudicheow...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: 25 Nov 2002 07:46:09 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
Hi Beth,
I had similar concerns some months ago - having never flown with a
guitar I wasn't sure what to do.
In the end I plonked the guitar in a good hard case (just a hard case,
not one of those nuke-proof flight cases), watched it go down the
chute at baggage check-in and prayed that 14 hours and some thousands
of miles later I'd see it again safe and sound.
I did. And again when I returned. I had absolutely no problems.
Some pointers though:
1) If the guitar is in a gig-bag they MAY allow you to cart it on as
hand luggage. But I didn't want to take this risk in case they
disallowed it and chucked it down the hold (in a gig-bag).
2) Some have mentioned that you can check the guitar in at the gate
itself (a gate check). I've never done it myself, but this is
apparently better because it means the guitar isn't chucked around
like the bags are down there. Enquire at check-in, or give the airline
a call now.
3) Many airlines will compensate the damage if your guitar dies while
in transit. Most don't say they will, but a couple of friendly letters
usually generates results of some kind. Don't count on it though. I
didn't, instead I decided to...
4. Buy insurance. Just for peace of mind. If your guitar isn't worth
much regular travel insurance will probably cover the cost of the
guitar (check first - the per item compensation limit is detailed in
the policy document), but I had to end up buying annual musical
instrument insurance cover to protect my guitar.
All in all, there are horror stories (there are horror stories about
practically anything), but generally speaking your chances of getting
the guitar on the other side unscathed is very good. Don't worry, just
do it.
Rudi
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:09:11 GMT
Rudi wrote:
<a good summary of the sensible advice about air travel with guitar,
including...
> 3) Many airlines will compensate the damage if your guitar dies while
> in transit. Most don't say they will, but a couple of friendly letters
> usually generates results of some kind.
For the record, airlines are not required by law (in the US, anyway) to pay
ANY compensation on a damaged guitar that is not in an ATA-approved case
like a Calton.
Having said that, I'm aware of several situations where a guitar in a
standard hard case was destroyed, and they paid to replace it, subject to
the standard limits ($2500 these days? Not sure anymore).
I've never heard of them refusing to pay, but they could, theoretically.
If you fly regularly with an important instrument, Lumpy and Rudi are
right...get some insurance. I usually just travel with a beater instead,
and take my chances.
Cheers,
Mike
From: Julian Templeman <julian@templeman-consulting...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:50:04 +0000
Monsieur No Busking said...
>If you fly regularly with an important instrument, Lumpy and Rudi are
>right...get some insurance. I usually just travel with a beater instead,
>and take my chances.
I cherish the advice I was given by a seasoned traveller: "Never
travel with anything you aren't prepared to lose"
Insurance may be fine, but it can only buy more wood and wire... it
can't replace magic...
jt
in the uk
From: John Jones <john_jones@berea...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: 25 Nov 2002 13:52:19 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
<batiya5723@cs...> (bethness) wrote in message news:<<3a311f04.0211242217.3aa311a@posting...>>...
> How does flying with a guitar work?
> How can I alleviate my fears about theft and damage on an extremely
> tight budget?
> Thanks in advance.
> Beth Hamon
Beth: I recently flew for the first time with guitars, an acoustic
and electric, both rather nice and expensive but I was playing for a
wedding and needed good instruments. Anyway, my one experience with
one airline was this:
They would not even consider letting me gate check guitars.
When I wanted to take out extra insurance, they said they would only
cover theft, not damage, no matter what.
Both guitars, packed in their hardshell cases, padded inside with old
socks, and latched, were handled at the special "large baggage" area,
with golf clubs and rifles and shotguns and such. At each airport
this area was monitored, u had to show ur baggage claim to get your
guitar, etc. and the chute wasn't as brutal as normal baggage claim.
Both guitars came through just fine.
Have no idea if this was beginner's luck, but if it puts your mind at
ease, glad to help.
John
From: Tom Loredo <loredo@astro...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:12:51 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Hojo2x wrote:
>
> I also loosen the strings, and continue to recommend that others do so, even
> though some (not all) manufacturers have switched to recommending that strings
> stay at full tension during airline transport.
>
> The reason I continue to recommend loosening the strings is that
>
> A) This is how I've always done it, and I've never had any problems;
>
> and (this is more important)
>
> B) the airlines require it, and if they damage your guitar they're much more
> likely to pay up, however sullenly and ungraciously, if you've loosened your
> strings before you fly.
The reason I've heard and read many times is not that the string tension
will cause damage, but that it can exacerbate damage should it occur.
That the presence of a couple hundred pounds of tension on the neck
could play a factor in enlarging a crack or break seems such an obvious
statement that I'm surprised there could be much to argue about here.
If an instrument's literature suggests that one not reduce tension in all
the strings at once, it's probably good to verify by a phone call or letter
that they intended this advice to hold even for air transport. Given
that many fine luthiers say their instruments have no trouble with
loose strings, I find it hard to believe that reducing tension could
be a more serious threat than having them tight during air transport
for the vast majority of instruments.
Peace,
Tom Loredo
Date -
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:25:43 -0700
From: mcdonald <<quetzalcoatl@mad...>>
Organization: Semi-Professional Ontologists Organization & Folderol
To: Tom Loredo <<loredo@astro...>>
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:12:51 -0700, Tom Loredo wrote:
> Hojo2x wrote:
>> B) the airlines require it
Since you've repeated this statement I feel obligated to repeat that it's
false, at least for the half dozen or so airlines I've been able to contact.
> The reason I've heard and read many times is not that the string tension
> will cause damage, but that it can exacerbate damage should it occur.
> That the presence of a couple hundred pounds of tension on the neck
> could play a factor in enlarging a crack or break seems such an obvious
> statement that I'm surprised there could be much to argue about here.
Arguments in the absence of facts tend to generate a lot of heat but not much
light. That's why I'd like to find a few more facts before starting any
arguments.
I think the only "argument" you may be seeing is in the context that Wade
continues to try to bamboozle the newbies by making up this story about the
airlines requiring the strings to be loosened. When people come to RMMGA for
advice, I think they should at least get the correct facts. The rest they can
decide for themselves.
> If an instrument's literature suggests that one not reduce tension in all
> the strings at once, it's probably good to verify by a phone call or letter
> that they intended this advice to hold even for air transport.
Taylor recommends specifically against loosening all the strings at once,
except to replace the battery in their "barndoor" models. A visit to their
website shows that they also recommend against loosening the strings during
shipment, including air travel.
In the booklet that comes with Larrivée guitars is the following statement by
Jean Larrivée, in case you've missed it in previous posts:
"Here I would like you to note that it is not my recommendation to take
the tension off the strings when shipping your guitar. This is a
dangerous practice as the peghead with the machine heads and the neck
are by far the heaviest part of the guitar. The string tension serves to
balance this stress along the length of the guitar. Without this
tension, one good jar to the guitar (even with the most careful packing)
and the guitar might well arrive at its destination with the peghead
sheared off at the nut. So remember when you are shipping, leave the
tension on the strings. At least the neck stands a chance this way."
> Given
> that many fine luthiers say their instruments have no trouble with
> loose strings, I find it hard to believe that reducing tension could
> be a more serious threat than having them tight during air transport
> for the vast majority of instruments.
Back to plausibility and witchcraft. If the engineers with whom I've spoken
are correct, then the string tension stabilizes the neck, making it less
likely to break (note that they independently reiterated the reasoning of
Jean Larrivée). If you're correct in stating that string tension will
exacerbate damage once it occurs then it comes down to two scenarios:
1. You can ship your guitar in a state in which it's more likely to break,
but once it does, the amount of damage may be lessened.
2. You can ship your guitar in a state in which it's less likely to break,
but once it does the amount of damage may be greater.
Pick your poison.
Consider that at least two of the major US acoustic guitar manufacturers not
only ship their guitars from the factory with strings at full tension, but
they do not recommend removing tension during shipment.
___Why in the world would they do this if the guitars
would be better off with the strings loosened?___
There could be lots of reasons of course, some related to the probability of
damage, and others related to entirely different matters. For example, some
luthiers contend that loosening the strings without adjusting the truss rod,
even if just for a few hours, may warp the neck or at least precipitate the
need for a neck reset.
If it turns out that the guitar is almost equally likely or unlikely to incur
damage with the strings loose or at tension, then this would be reason enough
not to loosen the strings during shipment.
For me the preponderance of evidence at this point suggests that loosening
the strings during air travel is not a good idea. In the absence of
additional facts, I have yet to reach a firm conclusion. If that sort of
skepticism were a bit more common around here, I think we might actually have
the opportunity to learn a thing or two.
mcd
--
Q: How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Two. One to hold the giraffe and the other to fill the bathtub
with brightly colored machine tools.Q: How many mathematicians does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: One. He gives it to two surrealists, thereby reducing the problem
to the previous question.
From: Tom Loredo <loredo@astro...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:24:01 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
mcdonald wrote:
>
> Arguments in the absence of facts tend to generate a lot of heat but not much
> light. That's why I'd like to find a few more facts before starting any
> arguments.
"before"??!!
> Taylor recommends specifically against loosening all the strings at once,
> except to replace the battery in their "barndoor" models. A visit to their
> website shows that they also recommend against loosening the strings during
> shipment, including air travel.
Good info, thanks for posting this. It's worth noting that they (in
contrast to Larivee) identify the one reasonable factor motivating
their conclusion (truss rod tension). They also note that many
repairpersons recommend the opposite. And they preface their recommendation
with the phrase, "On a Taylor guitar..."; i.e., they are not offering
it as general advice. It is perhaps not a coincidence that Taylors tend
to have thinnish necks.
> In the booklet that comes with Larrivée guitars is the following statement by
> Jean Larrivée, in case you've missed it in previous posts:
>
> "Here I would like you to note that it is not my recommendation to take
> the tension off the strings when shipping your guitar. This is a
> dangerous practice as the peghead with the machine heads and the neck
> are by far the heaviest part of the guitar. The string tension serves to
> balance this stress along the length of the guitar. Without this
> tension, one good jar to the guitar (even with the most careful packing)
> and the guitar might well arrive at its destination with the peghead
> sheared off at the nut. So remember when you are shipping, leave the
> tension on the strings. At least the neck stands a chance this way."
It's astonishing that the absurdness of this statement (from the point
of view of basic physics) wasn't apparent to the Larivee folks. Repeating
it doesn't make it any more valid. Look back in your high school physics
notes if it isn't obvious what's wrong with the statement! Actually,
forget the physics notes, just use some common sense.
> Back to plausibility and witchcraft. If the engineers with whom I've spoken
> are correct, then the string tension stabilizes the neck, making it less
> likely to break (note that they independently reiterated the reasoning of
> Jean Larrivée).
What engineers have said this? It is partly true in so far as it balances
tension in the truss rod. But the Larivee argument about the weight of
the peghead, etc., is just plain wrong.
> 1. You can ship your guitar in a state in which it's more likely to break,
> but once it does, the amount of damage may be lessened.
A rather significant leap in reasoning (that it's more likely to break).
Even Taylor does not say that loosening the strings makes breakage more
likely; they instead note that it can lead to a back bow developing.
> There could be lots of reasons of course, some related to the probability of
> damage, and others related to entirely different matters. For example, some
> luthiers contend that loosening the strings without adjusting the truss rod,
> even if just for a few hours, may warp the neck or at least precipitate the
> need for a neck reset.
This in my opinion is the only possibly significant factor---the truss rod.
But the very fact that only some luthiers say this is a problem, while
others don't, suggests strongly that it can't be that serious a problem.
> If it turns out that the guitar is almost equally likely or unlikely to incur
> damage with the strings loose or at tension, then this would be reason enough
> not to loosen the strings during shipment.
No, because the tension could exacerbate the damage should it occur.
> For me the preponderance of evidence at this point suggests that loosening
> the strings during air travel is not a good idea.
I don't see any preponderance of evidence on either side. Merely quoting
a statement from a manufacturer whose reasoning is obviously unsound is
not "evidence" (referring to Larivee, not Taylor, here).
I think you are making a huge mountain out of a small molehill. It's
reached the point where the original problem has become less interesting
than the reasons why you're making such a big deal out of it! 8-)
There are completely sound arguments on both sides of this issue. I
think the best thing you've said in this thread is:
> Pick your poison.
Unfortunately, despite saying it yourself, you don't seem very content
in letting folks indeed pick their own poison.
Peace,
Tom
From: mcdonald <quetzalcoatl@mad...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:02:38 -0700
Organization: Semi-Professional Ontologists Organization & Folderol
[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the 'To' and 'Newsgroups' headers for details. ]]On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:24:01 -0700, Tom Loredo wrote:
> Good info, thanks for posting this. It's worth noting that they (in
> contrast to Larivee) identify the one reasonable factor motivating
> their conclusion (truss rod tension). They also note that many
> repairpersons recommend the opposite. And they preface their recommendation
> with the phrase, "On a Taylor guitar..."; i.e., they are not offering
> it as general advice. It is perhaps not a coincidence that Taylors tend
> to have thinnish necks.
Obviously Taylor cannot legitimately make recommendations on behalf of other
manufacturers. Most high quality acoustic guitars have truss rods, and others
besides Taylor have thin necks. It would seem that the general principle
still applies.
> It's astonishing that the absurdness of this statement (from the point
> of view of basic physics) wasn't apparent to the Larivee folks.
I've added your opinion to my list.
> Repeating
> it doesn't make it any more valid.
I assumed that much would be obvious to all. Part of my hope in repeating it
is that someone will take a shot at either confirming or refuting specific
aspects of it.
> Look back in your high school physics
> notes if it isn't obvious what's wrong with the statement! Actually,
> forget the physics notes, just use some common sense.
Certainly as a scientist you're aware that several millenia of
experimentation have taught us that while common sense is common, it doesn't
always make sense. At one time common sense told people that 5 pound weights
fell faster than 1 pound weights, and we know how that one turned out.
I don't have my HS physics text anymore, but I did get out my old copy of
Halliday and Resnick when I first started looking into this. Basic physics
texts are good for principles, but not always good for applications, since
the specifics of any application often require empirical testing of the
relationships among components. I think an engineering text would be more
helpful, if only I had the time and patience to work through one.
> What engineers have said this? It is partly true in so far as it balances
> tension in the truss rod. But the Larivee argument about the weight of
> the peghead, etc., is just plain wrong.
The engineers include one from Milco, one from Raytheon, two from McDonnell
Douglass, two from a company in Phoenix whose name I can't remember (maybe
something like Montech Design), and one from Pima College in Tucson. They
focused in on the fact that the headstock is bent backwards, which they said
gives the structure an inherent weakness in this direction. They thought the
tension of the strings would counteract this weakness and stabilize the neck,
in a sense returning it to the stability of a straight piece of wood. So
where are they going wrong?
>> 1. You can ship your guitar in a state in which it's more likely to break,
>> but once it does, the amount of damage may be lessened.
>
> A rather significant leap in reasoning (that it's more likely to break).
> Even Taylor does not say that loosening the strings makes breakage more
> likely; they instead note that it can lead to a back bow developing.
I prefaced this statement by saying that:
If
1. The engineers are right about the increased probability of breaking 2. You're right about the increased probability of subsequent damageThen
The guitar is more likely to break but less likely to sustain additional damage once it does.There is no leap in reasoning. Given these two premises, the conclusion
follows. I understand that you take issue with premise #1.
> This in my opinion is the only possibly significant factor---the truss rod.
> But the very fact that only some luthiers say this is a problem, while
> others don't, suggests strongly that it can't be that serious a problem.
Which is something I've been suggesting all along: That factors other than
string tension are probably more important.
>> If it turns out that the guitar is almost equally likely or unlikely to
>> incur
>> damage with the strings loose or at tension, then this would be reason
>> enough
>> not to loosen the strings during shipment.
>
> No, because the tension could exacerbate the damage should it occur.
Good point. When I said "incur damage" I was referring to the probability of
all forms of damage associated with a break. I was intending to emphasize the
problems associated with neck warp from unbalanced truss rod tension.
> I don't see any preponderance of evidence on either side. Merely quoting
> a statement from a manufacturer whose reasoning is obviously unsound is
> not "evidence" (referring to Larivee, not Taylor, here).
For me the preponderance comes from the following:
1. The opinion of LarrivŽe.
2. The opinions of the engineers.
3. The reasoning of Taylor concerning the truss rod.
4. The fact that guitar companies ship thousands of guitars with the strings
at full tension.
I agree that "evidence" is a fuzzy term here, since mostly all I've
referenced are opinons and policies. What I would really like to see are some
engineering/physics type experiments with guitars or other stringed
instruments. I've done some searches in the literature, but haven't come up
with anything.
> I think you are making a huge mountain out of a small molehill. It's
> reached the point where the original problem has become less interesting
> than the reasons why you're making such a big deal out of it! 8-)
> There are completely sound arguments on both sides of this issue. I
> think the best thing you've said in this thread is:
>
>> Pick your poison.
>
> Unfortunately, despite saying it yourself, you don't seem very content
> in letting folks indeed pick their own poison.
I think that you're either confusing me with someone else or not giving a
very careful read to what I've been saying. I don't tell others what they
should do about string tension when traveling with a guitar (although there
are plenty here on RMMGA who do). I do try to make sure that others know that
there are conflicting points of view on this topic.
When I first started reading this group around 7-8 years ago, the standard
recommendation was "loosen your strings when flying". When I started asking
why, most people had no idea, and other people had reasons that either made
no sense (e.g. "because of the higher altitude") or were just plain wrong
(e.g. "because the airlines require it"). Over the last few years,
principally as a result of my poking and prodding, some actual reasoning for
both sides has come forth. For me that's a good thing, although I'm aware
that others disagree.
mcd
--
Human cardiac catheterization was introduced by Dr. Werner Forssman in 1929.
Ignoring his department chief, and tying his assistant to an operating table
to prevent him from interfering, Dr. Forssman placed a urethral catheter into
a vein in his own arm, advanced it to the right atrium of his own heart, and
walked upstairs to the x-ray department where he took the confirmatory x-ray
film.
In 1956, Dr. Forssman was awarded the Nobel Prize.
From: whirligig <look@this...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 22:14:54 +0000
On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 1:02:38 +0000, mcdonald wrote
(in message <<01HW.BA0AB93E0057EE41031185D0@news...>>):
>[...]
>
> The engineers include one from Milco, one from Raytheon, two from McDonnell
> Douglass, two from a company in Phoenix whose name I can't remember (maybe
> something like Montech Design), and one from Pima College in Tucson. They
> focused in on the fact that the headstock is bent backwards, which they said
> gives the structure an inherent weakness in this direction. They thought the
> tension of the strings would counteract this weakness and stabilize the
> neck,
> in a sense returning it to the stability of a straight piece of wood. So
> where are they going wrong?
Grain.
Adrian
--
www.adrianlegg.com
From: mcdonald <quetzalcoatl@mad...>
Subject: Re: questions about air travel with guitar - help?
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 17:54:30 -0700
Organization: Semi-Professional Ontologists Organization & Folderol
On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 15:14:54 -0700, whirligig wrote:
> Grain.
I asked them about that. They said the neck would definitely be weaker if the
grain ran perpendicular to the long axis of the neck, which seems pretty
obvious. But they thought the string tension adds stability irrespective of
the direction of the grain. In other words, the grain is a constant factor
that contributes a fixed amount to the probability of break, whether the
strings are under tension or not.
How is it that you're thinking the grain adds to the likelihood of break
specifically when the strings are under tension?
mcd
--
When driving from Vernon, Texas to Wichita Falls, Texas, you are
simultaneously travelling on Highway 287 North and Highway 183 South. This is
not a mistake in labelling. If you travel in the opposite direction, the
signs indicate that you are driving Hwy 287 South and Hwy 183 North. Leave it
to Texans to come up with a way to be going south and north at the same time.
| Latest tricks for flying with guitar? [7] |
|---|
From: A. & G. Reiswig <Heiduk@directvinternet...>
Subject: Latest tricks for flying with guitar?
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:35:16 -0800
Hi, all.
I have to travel to the Southwest for a few gigs and for a non-grayChristmas, and I'll be taking my Lowden in a Calton case. Last time I flew
with it (pre 9/11), I was able to carry it on or gate check it.
I'm sure things have changed...what are the latest recommendations forflying with guitars? Heavy insurance?
--
George Reiswig
Song of the River Music
From: whirligig <look@this...>
Subject: Re: Latest tricks for flying with guitar?
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 0:09:09 +0000
On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:35:16 +0000, A. & G. Reiswig wrote
(in message <3dfd03e1$<1_6@nopics...>>):
>[....]
>
> I'm sure things have changed...what are the latest recommendations for
> flying with guitars? Heavy insurance?
Seems to be the same old hit and miss, George, with the bottom line still
being the case in a box.
I've been told that over here one of the budget airlines usually associated
with Costa Del Bonk flights is refusing to take instruments under any
circumstances.
Adrian
--
www.adrianlegg.com
From: Chris Callahan <chriscal@NOS_PAMrfci...>
Subject: Re: Latest tricks for flying with guitar?
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 19:24:17 -0500
George,
You've got a Calton case for gosh sakes, so don't sweat it.
I used to worry over this issue every flight too, and particularly so after
my Guild was dumped unceremoniously on the baggage belt with all locks open
but "one". I saw it as one lock away from disaster. After that I began duct
taping the case after I locked it for my occasional flights.
But one of the reasons I purchased a Calton deluxe case was just so I
wouldn't "sweat it" anymore if the airline made me put it in the hold. If
that were to happen, I can't think of any greater security than knowing my
guitar was 4 way locked in a perfectly fitting Calton.
Chris
"A. & G. Reiswig" <<Heiduk@directvinternet...>> wrote in message
news:3dfd03e1$<1_6@nopics...>...
> Hi, all.
> I have to travel to the Southwest for a few gigs and for a non-gray
> Christmas, and I'll be taking my Lowden in a Calton case. Last time I
flew
> with it (pre 9/11), I was able to carry it on or gate check it.
>
> I'm sure things have changed...what are the latest recommendations for
> flying with guitars? Heavy insurance?
>
> --
> George Reiswig
> Song of the River Music
>
>
From: Larry Pattis <LarryPattis@NoSpam...>
Subject: Re: Latest tricks for flying with guitar?
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:44:28 -0700
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <3dfd03e1$<1_6@nopics...>>, A. & G. Reiswig
<<Heiduk@directvinternet...>> wrote:
> Hi, all.
> I have to travel to the Southwest for a few gigs and for a non-gray
> Christmas, and I'll be taking my Lowden in a Calton case. Last time I flew
> with it (pre 9/11), I was able to carry it on or gate check it.
>
> I'm sure things have changed...what are the latest recommendations for
> flying with guitars? Heavy insurance?
>
> --
> George Reiswig
> Song of the River Music
>
George,
I have had serious problems (rude personnel) flying Delta out of
Portland recently (twice, in fact).
No gate claim was offered (even after I politely asked), and I was
pretty much treated like dirt. First time this has EVER happened to
me, as I always go out of my way to be as nice as possible to the
airline folks.
They talked about about a corporation-wide crackdown, and FAA
regulations. BS.
The Delta folks in Salt Lake were as kind as could be....go figure...
If you're flying on Delta you might as well check the guitar, and save
yourself the hassle....or perhaps attempt to carry it on, in hopes of
furthering the cause......
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
From: Hussman <dfhussey1@attbinospan...>
Subject: Re: Latest tricks for flying with guitar?
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 07:34:40 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband
I've had no problems with United, I don't know about Southwest except they
fly 737's and the overhead bin is large enough to handle most guitars.
Do your best to get there early and get one of the first boarding groups. I
almost always get checked for security when I carry the guitar, just be nice
and hope they don't ask you to check it.
I agree with duct taping your lid just in case, you should be safe.
Good luck,
Dennis
"A. & G. Reiswig" <<Heiduk@directvinternet...>> wrote in message
news:3dfd03e1$<1_6@nopics...>...
> Hi, all.
> I have to travel to the Southwest for a few gigs and for a non-gray
> Christmas, and I'll be taking my Lowden in a Calton case. Last time I
flew
> with it (pre 9/11), I was able to carry it on or gate check it.
>
> I'm sure things have changed...what are the latest recommendations for
> flying with guitars? Heavy insurance?
>
> --
> George Reiswig
> Song of the River Music
>
>
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Latest tricks for flying with guitar?
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:31:39 GMT
> Do your best to get there early and get one of the first boarding groups.
I
> almost always get checked for security when I carry the guitar, just be
nice
> and hope they don't ask you to check it.
>
> I agree with duct taping your lid just in case, you should be safe.
Just don't duct tape it before you get to the airport, on the chance that
you'll get to carry it on. It'd be a REAL pain to have to remove it as you
go through the security checkpoint.
I got my first guitar with a Calton case about a year ago, and so far my
success in carrying it on has been about 50%. United and Northwest both let
me gate-check the guitar, American Airlines told me they don't do gate
checks at all (so I talked them into letting me carry it on). On my one
international trip with that guitar, I was required to check it (Virgin
Airlines). I've carried a sizeable Guild case onboard international flights
with British Air and Delta, but that was back in the years when I always
flew business class, and had a jillion miles with each airline.
Caltons are bigger and bulkier than most cases, and if the flight's crowded
it can be a real pain to find a space in the overhead bin. Some
particularly helpful flight attendants have put it in the "locker" for me,
but you can't always count on that.
When required to check the guitar, I don't duct tape the case...at least,
not on the Calton. I just lock all the latches. When I travel with my
Taylor, I tape the SKB case, because it only has one locking latch, and the
latches are generally lower quality.
I DO stuff lots of clothing and underwear beneath the headstock to prevent
breakage if the case is dropped.
Cheers,
- Mike Pugh
From: Michael DeLalla/Falling Mountain Music <delalla@fallingmountain...>
Subject: Re: Latest tricks for flying with guitar?
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:59:49 -0500
Organization: Verio
Hi Mike,
A question for you, that I'm posting publicly, because I was going to
address it anyway: did you gate check it out of Dulles? My last trip out was
with two guitars, so I knew I'd be checking at least one of them. The
otherwise kind folks there told me that Dulles no longer does gate checking,
due to the system of shuttle vehicles that take a passenger out to the
terminals, and the inability for new security measures to accomodate that
positively archaic way of moving passengers. Did I get handed a load? I
didn't make a fuss, because I certainly didn't expect to carry both of them
onboard.
--
Michael DeLalla/Falling Mountain Music
http://www.fallingmountain.com
"No Busking" <<nobusking@yahoo...>> wrote in message
news:LIjL9.29902$<VA5.3153840@news1...>...
> > Do your best to get there early and get one of the first boarding
groups.
> I
> > almost always get checked for security when I carry the guitar, just be
> nice
> > and hope they don't ask you to check it.
> >
> > I agree with duct taping your lid just in case, you should be safe.
>
> Just don't duct tape it before you get to the airport, on the chance that
> you'll get to carry it on. It'd be a REAL pain to have to remove it as
you
> go through the security checkpoint.
>
> I got my first guitar with a Calton case about a year ago, and so far my
> success in carrying it on has been about 50%. United and Northwest both
let
> me gate-check the guitar, American Airlines told me they don't do gate
> checks at all (so I talked them into letting me carry it on). On my one
> international trip with that guitar, I was required to check it (Virgin
> Airlines). I've carried a sizeable Guild case onboard international
flights
> with British Air and Delta, but that was back in the years when I always
> flew business class, and had a jillion miles with each airline.
>
> Caltons are bigger and bulkier than most cases, and if the flight's
crowded
> it can be a real pain to find a space in the overhead bin. Some
> particularly helpful flight attendants have put it in the "locker" for me,
> but you can't always count on that.
>
> When required to check the guitar, I don't duct tape the case...at least,
> not on the Calton. I just lock all the latches. When I travel with my
> Taylor, I tape the SKB case, because it only has one locking latch, and
the
> latches are generally lower quality.
>
> I DO stuff lots of clothing and underwear beneath the headstock to prevent
> breakage if the case is dropped.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> - Mike Pugh
>
>
| Flying guitars-new security stuff [10] |
|---|
From: Deb Cowan <dcowan@DebraCowan...>
Subject: Flying guitars-new security stuff
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 21:23:00 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Just wondering what all of you think about the new security screening
procedures in the US that require you to unlock all checked bags.
As a touring musician, I have made the decision to try to drive to gigs
instead of flying with my Martin. Either that or start taking my 1974
Yamaha FG-160 to gigs where I must fly.
I am also wondering about folks who travel overseas, especially with the
UK gathering coming up. Any folks stateside going? If so, how are you
dealing with the new security regs? I really want to go and I wanted to
bring my Martin, but I am very concerned about having to leave the
Calton case unlocked. Just not comfy with that....
Deb Cowan
******************************
PO Box 1335
Westborough, MA 01581-6335
(508) 662-9746
http://www.DebraCowan.com
******************************
Debra Cowan is listed on the rosters of:
Falling Mountain Music- http://www.FallingMountain.com
Massachusetts Cultural Council- http://www.massculturalcouncil.org
New England Foundation For the Arts- http://www.nefa.org/
******************************
To stay alive, folksong must be alive"
-Peter Kennedy, song collector and editor of "Folksongs of Britain
and Ireland
******************************
From: Hedberg <hhedberg@swbell...>
Subject: Re: Flying guitars-new security stuff
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:54:59 -0800
On Tue, 07 Jan 2003 21:23:00 -0500, Deb Cowan <<dcowan@DebraCowan...>>
wrote:
>Just wondering what all of you think about the new security screening
>procedures in the US that require you to unlock all checked bags.
>
>As a touring musician, I have made the decision to try to drive to gigs
>instead of flying with my Martin. Either that or start taking my 1974
>Yamaha FG-160 to gigs where I must fly.
>
>I am also wondering about folks who travel overseas, especially with the
>UK gathering coming up. Any folks stateside going? If so, how are you
>dealing with the new security regs? I really want to go and I wanted to
>bring my Martin, but I am very concerned about having to leave the
>Calton case unlocked. Just not comfy with that....
>
>Deb Cowan
>
>
I've not flown a lot with guitars (I'm no pro. What a funny notion),
but when I have I haven't locked the cases anyway. The old Martin
plastic cases and the Taylor (the good ones that they used to supply
with all their guitars) cases that I've flown with have pretty much
"decorator" locks -- perhaps the Calton locks are more serious. What
I have done is use two sturdy nylon straps to wrap the case so that
even if handled roughly it wouldn't spring open. If I were flying
today, that's still what I would do. If they think they need to get
in there for some reason, they can without using force but it won't be
something one of them will do capriciously.
I don't think the new regs increase the danger to your guitar very
much. Allegedly, the airlines have some sort of two person rule about
opening bags for inspection and my guess is that your guitar would be
very unlikely to attract attention anyway unless it gets exposed to
something with a high nitrate/nitrite content and sets off the
sniffers or the dogs. I get the feeling that it's expensive to hand
inspect the luggage and they'll only do it under very special
circumstances.
Again, I really don't think the risk (which has always been real) to
your guitar has increased appreciably. Secure it in some way so that
it requires an effort to open it up (perhaps some packing tape on the
latches) but is possible without forcing a lock. Much better to do
that than to travel with a guitar that doesn't satisfy you.
Have a nice trip to J.O.E.
Harold
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Flying guitars-new security stuff
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:35:11 GMT
Deb asked:
> Just wondering what all of you think about the new security screening
> procedures in the US that require you to unlock all checked bags.
<snip>
> I am also wondering about folks who travel overseas, especially with the
> UK gathering coming up. Any folks stateside going? If so, how are you
> dealing with the new security regs? I really want to go and I wanted to
> bring my Martin, but I am very concerned about having to leave the
> Calton case unlocked. Just not comfy with that....
Hmmmm....hadn't thought about this one.
The main purpose in locking the latches is to prevent them from flying open,
rather than preventing theft (most thieves would rather walk off with the
whole case rather than with the guitar by itself...attracts less notice, and
the latch locks all use the same universal key anyway).
Could you pull packing tape over a few of the latches? That would keep them
from flying open, but would offer easy access to the inspectors if required.
Packing tape will also pull off the case with no residue when you're done.
Of course, they'd be unlikely to re-tape after inspecting, but the latches
on a Calton can generally be trusted anyway (it's unlikely that all of them
will fly open at once).
In fact, given that the Calton locks use the same key as a Samsonite
suitcase, I wonder if it even matters if it's locked...baggage inspectors
probably don't have much of an issue with those sorts of locks. Just a
thought...not sure it's worth the risk that some numbskull would take a
crowbar to the case.
I'm sure Joe's right and there will be PLENTY of guitars around at the UK
gathering. And planes, trains, and automobiles are a lot easier without a
guitar. You really need to go - guitar or not. Like all the gatherings,
it's a fantastic experience, and each one has it's own unique flavor. I
just wish I could join you.
- Mike
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Flying guitars-new security stuff
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 12:14:04 GMT
From the FAA website FAQ...
====
Q: Should I lock my luggage?
A: In some cases, the TSA will have to open your baggage as part of the
screening process. If your bag is unlocked, then TSA will simply open the
bag and screen the bag. However, if the bag is locked and TSA needs to open
your bag, then locks may have to be broken. Therefore, TSA suggests that
you help prevent the need to break your locks by keeping your bag unlocked.
In the near future, TSA will provide seals at the airport for you to use to
secure your luggage as an alternative to locking your bag. Until that time,
you may want to consider purchasing standard cable ties to secure your bags
if it has zippers.
====
It sounds like taping the latches would be a good approach, if you decide to
bring the guitar along.
Cheers,
Mike
From: Yorkshireman <himself@NOSPAM...>
Subject: Re: Flying guitars-new security stuff
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:31:01 -0000
I've flown a lot and NEVER locked a checked case including my Caltons. I was
told a long time ago that they can break into the case if it is deemed
necessary.
Last 3 or 4 trips over the Atlantic, (last trip in October) with only one
exception, I've carried my guitar onboard. The only exception was a Virgin
747 flight when I had 3 guitars. I handed them over at the gate and they
were carried into the arrivals hall for me when I got to Manchester.
I also take the view that a guitar can be insured and if it's lost I'll have
the awful (hee hee) job of spending ££££ or $$$$ on a new guitar. I'm not a
sentimentalist though.
Chris
"Deb Cowan" <<dcowan@DebraCowan...>> wrote in message
news:<v1n2pg1assng05@corp...>...
> Just wondering what all of you think about the new security screening
> procedures in the US that require you to unlock all checked bags.
>
> As a touring musician, I have made the decision to try to drive to gigs
> instead of flying with my Martin. Either that or start taking my 1974
> Yamaha FG-160 to gigs where I must fly.
>
> I am also wondering about folks who travel overseas, especially with the
> UK gathering coming up. Any folks stateside going? If so, how are you
> dealing with the new security regs? I really want to go and I wanted to
> bring my Martin, but I am very concerned about having to leave the
> Calton case unlocked. Just not comfy with that....
>
> Deb Cowan
>
>
> ******************************
> PO Box 1335
> Westborough, MA 01581-6335
> (508) 662-9746
> http://www.DebraCowan.com
> ******************************
> Debra Cowan is listed on the rosters of:
> Falling Mountain Music- http://www.FallingMountain.com
> Massachusetts Cultural Council- http://www.massculturalcouncil.org
> New England Foundation For the Arts- http://www.nefa.org/
> ******************************
> To stay alive, folksong must be alive"
> -Peter Kennedy, song collector and editor of "Folksongs of Britain
> and Ireland
> ******************************
>
From: Deb Cowan <dcowan@DebraCowan...>
Subject: Re: Flying guitars-new security stuff
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 10:58:11 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Thanks for all the opinions. I knew I could count on all of you folks.
I think that Mike and Joe are right: there will be enough guitars at the
UK gathering that I wouldn't have to worry :-)
However, I would like to do some touring over in the UK and Ireland,
which does require that I bring my own instrument. I think putting the
tape on the latches is a great idea. My friends Paul Kamm and Eleanor
MacDonald told an interesting tale:
"Paul's guitar in one of those enormous flight cases that looks like a
coffin (time to spring for a Calton....) - He did have to leave it
unlocked - but he always duct tapes those latches since they have the
nasty tendency to loosen and then break off. He's done this for years.
He put a note ON the case explaining the why's of the duct tape and that
there was a small roll inside the case, would they be PLEASE, please be
so kind as to replace the tape after done rummaging about inside -
looking for bombs or guns or boxcutters or plastics or whatever they're
looking for.... I said, 'fat chance'...
Well, it arrived intact and none the worse for wear and inside was the
telltale flyer explaining that it had indeed been searched. BUT, the
duct tape had been carefully replaced over the locks..... there is hope."
So, it looks like the tape on the latches might be the ticket.
Best to all,
Deb
******************************
PO Box 1335
Westborough, MA 01581-6335
(508) 662-9746
http://www.DebraCowan.com
******************************
Debra Cowan is listed on the rosters of:
Falling Mountain Music- http://www.FallingMountain.com
Massachusetts Cultural Council- http://www.massculturalcouncil.org
New England Foundation For the Arts- http://www.nefa.org/
******************************
To stay alive, folksong must be alive"
-Peter Kennedy, song collector and editor of "Folksongs of Britain and
Ireland"
******************************
From: Lumpy <lumpy@digitalcartography...>
Subject: Re: Flying guitars-new security stuff
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 09:53:30 -0700
Deb Cowan wrote:
> ...he always duct tapes those latches...
> He put a note ON the case explaining the
> why's of the duct tape and that
> there was a small roll inside the case...
> ...it arrived intact...
> ...the duct tape had been carefully
> replaced over the locks...
Perhaps simpler would be to lock the case,
and attach the key to the case handle with a
similar note attached. Let them unlock it,
then ask them to re-lock it.
Simpler than that might be to use one of those
nylon quick lock straps that everyone uses on
their luggage.
Then again, even simpler, would be to ship
it separately for $25.
lumpy
--
http://www.digitalcartography.com/cd.htm
From: Larry Pattis <LarryPattis@NoSpam...>
Subject: Re: Flying guitars-new security stuff
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 09:00:19 -0800
Organization: Oregon Public Networking
In article <avk9f4$gc95c$<1@ID-76024...>>, Lumpy
<<lumpy@digitalcartography...>> wrote:
> Simpler than that might be to use one of those
> nylon quick lock straps that everyone uses on
> their luggage.
Good idea. This has been on the news, as well. A nylon cinch strap is
a good idea for ALL luggage, in fact.
> Then again, even simpler, would be to ship
> it separately for $25.
>
> lumpy
Uhhhm, Deb was originally asking about this for overseas flights...so
the $25 shipping option might not be available in this case.
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
From: Steve Hawkins <res0pf02@verizon...>
Subject: Re: Flying guitars-new security stuff
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:16:33 GMT
Hi Deb! Allow me to make another suggestion. I use a Calton when I fly
with a guitar and lock all 5 of the latches. After Frontier Airlines broke
one of the latches by bouncing my guitar off the concrete ramp I decided I
needed some way to protect the case latches. I ordered a fitted case cover
from Colorado Case Company. http://www.coloradocase.com/
It complete covers the case, protecting the latches and adding another
layer of thermal insulation. I highly recommend it especially if the
latches don't lock.
As to the new security rules and not locking the case, I'm very
uncomfortable with that. Theft is not the issue. If they want it, a
locked case is not going to deter them from taking it. I'm more worried
about the curious and uneducated people who will be handling my instrument
out of my presence. Will they remove it from the case to look in the
soundhole and the case pick pocket? Will they properly repack the shock
absorbing material I put around the headstock? Will they decide to do
their Pete Townsend imitation or pick a few notes to see how it sounds?
The guitar will be in the baggage area for several hours. I see a high
risk of damage here with little recourse for recovery.
It would be nice if you could request the inspection at check-in and be
present while they did it. They could then put a tag on the bag and you
could make sure it was packed correctly and locked up before it went to the
plane. I'll leave my case unlocked the next time I fly but I won't be
happy about it.
Are you going to the UK Gathering in March?
Take Care,
Steve Hawkins
From: Yorkshireman <himself@NOSPAM...>
Subject: Re: Flying guitars-new security stuff
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:36:41 -0000
The thing to do is either, as I usually do, take it on with you and this is
easier than you would think if you are strong enough. At the check-in desk
if the guitar is queried I just say "but they always let me carry it on"
this has never failed to get me to the gate and has only once failed to get
me on the plane with it. (I had 3 guitars!) At least if you get it to the
gate there is minimal time for someone open the case for whatever reason.
Chris
"Steve Hawkins" <<res0pf02@verizon...>> wrote in message
news:<Xns92FE6917BE5F7res0pf02verizonnet@199...>...
> Hi Deb! Allow me to make another suggestion. I use a Calton when I fly
> with a guitar and lock all 5 of the latches. After Frontier Airlines
broke
> one of the latches by bouncing my guitar off the concrete ramp I decided I
> needed some way to protect the case latches. I ordered a fitted case
cover
> from Colorado Case Company. http://www.coloradocase.com/
>
> It complete covers the case, protecting the latches and adding another
> layer of thermal insulation. I highly recommend it especially if the
> latches don't lock.
>
> As to the new security rules and not locking the case, I'm very
> uncomfortable with that. Theft is not the issue. If they want it, a
> locked case is not going to deter them from taking it. I'm more worried
> about the curious and uneducated people who will be handling my instrument
> out of my presence. Will they remove it from the case to look in the
> soundhole and the case pick pocket? Will they properly repack the shock
> absorbing material I put around the headstock? Will they decide to do
> their Pete Townsend imitation or pick a few notes to see how it sounds?
> The guitar will be in the baggage area for several hours. I see a high
> risk of damage here with little recourse for recovery.
>
> It would be nice if you could request the inspection at check-in and be
> present while they did it. They could then put a tag on the bag and you
> could make sure it was packed correctly and locked up before it went to
the
> plane. I'll leave my case unlocked the next time I fly but I won't be
> happy about it.
>
> Are you going to the UK Gathering in March?
>
> Take Care,
> Steve Hawkins
>
| Flying United [7] |
|---|
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Flying United
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:10:41 GMT
I just returned from a week-long trip to the midwest...Washington Dulles to
Chicago, Chicago to Kansas City, and back again.
As usual, I brought my Blueridge dread along in it's hardshell
case...plywood, not a Calton. Because the trip was very sudden and I had
other things on my mind, I had decided to just check it if required and take
my chances with the luggage handlers.
The United Airlines check-in staff actually INSISTED that I carry it on the
plane at both ends, and all of the flight staff were incredibly helpful in
getting it on the plane...they offered to put it in the first class closet,
and when there wasn't room in there, they assisted me in finding suitable
overhead space.
I dunno what's going on...parallel universe?
BTW...I went on the trip because my father fell quite ill. He's doing much
better now, and is at home resting comfortably.
Best regards,
Mike Pugh
From: Deb Cowan <dcowan@DebranospamCowan...>
Subject: Re: Flying United
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:12:19 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Hi Mike,
I did get your message and I hope that your dad is better.
As for United, I have always had positive experiences with my guitar.
That is very interesting about the insistance that you carry it on.
Maybe US Airways will be as nice when I fly to the UK in March.
Deb
******************************
PO Box 1335
Westborough, MA 01581-6335
(508) 662-9746
http://www.DebraCowan.com
******************************
Debra Cowan is listed on the rosters of:
Falling Mountain Music- http://www.FallingMountain.com
Massachusetts Cultural Council- http://www.massculturalcouncil.org
New England Foundation For the Arts- http://www.nefa.org/
******************************
To stay alive, folksong must be alive"
-Peter Kennedy, song collector and editor of "Folksongs of Britain and
Ireland"
******************************
From: Greg Z <gzinkman@Yahoody...>
Subject: Re: Flying United
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:15:07 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband
"Deb Cowan" :
> Maybe US Airways will be as nice when I fly to the UK in March.
Deb,
I've taken a full size guitar and case carried on 2X from Providenceto Grand Cayman, changing in Charlotte via US Airways. No problems
occurred, only once on the last last leg (Charlotte to PVD) one agent gave
me a shpiel (SP?)about "if there's no room..." I said 3 flights in a row
there
was room and kept going. Some people feel the need to be your aunt or
mother. Again, no problem and we fly during school vacation.
But that was before 9/11, etc, last trip I had a Larrivee parlor to bring.
Greg Z
From: Sleepy Fingers Jones <persistent_offender@NOSPAM...>
Subject: Re: Flying United
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:37:33 +0000
On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:12:19 -0500, Deb Cowan
<<dcowan@DebranospamCowan...>> wrote:
>Hi Mike,
>
>I did get your message and I hope that your dad is better.
>
>As for United, I have always had positive experiences with my guitar.
>That is very interesting about the insistance that you carry it on.
>
>Maybe US Airways will be as nice when I fly to the UK in March.
I've never had any trouble with American, but United are best IMO.
I used to fly in and out of Nashville a lot. I got the feeling that
they looked after anyone carrying a guitar...just in case.
Pete
From: whirligig <look@this...>
Subject: Re: Flying United
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 14:16:58 +0000
On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 13:10:41 +0000, No Busking wrote
(in message <lD62a.6015$<jR3.3096191@news1...>>):
>[...]
>
> The United Airlines check-in staff actually INSISTED that I carry it on the
> plane at both ends, and all of the flight staff were incredibly helpful in
> getting it on the plane...they offered to put it in the first class closet,
> and when there wasn't room in there, they assisted me in finding suitable
> overhead space.
>
> I dunno what's going on...parallel universe?
Hysterical bitching gets noticed better than resigned compliance ?
The possibility of work disappearing concentrates the mind ? :-)
I've gone out of my way to stick with UA across ten years plus _because_ I
got less grief from them over the guitar - sticking even to the extent of
taking an extra stop/change with them rather than a direct with someone else.
The only serious difficulties I ever had with them were down to Canadian
ground handling's Horatio At The Bridge attitude - Winnipeg will live in
infamy.
Mind you, I made some huge compromises with the instrument's structure and am
still looking at the possible construction of a very compromised second
instrument.
Incidentally, I suspect if 777s were the main plane to Japan the Yamaha
Silent Guitar steel string jobs would be a couple of inches shorter overall.
I haven't measured a nylon version.
I'm very happy to join you in the applause. The UA international cabin
baggage allowance used to be one piece per passenger, so Di and I got into
some complex compromises to try to meet that and keep the guitar with us.
It's now two pieces, the same as UA US internal, so I can carry laptop and
guitar solo if Di can't make the trip.
I'm sure the trick is still to not take liberties, and there are still tetchy
groundstaff about. I assume if the huge rollaboards and suiters reappear,
there will be another problem.
Meanwhile, UA have delayed the arrival of my ulcer and I'm very grateful.
If they go bust, I'm screwed. My technical pals are _still_ getting the same
steady flow of airline damage repair work, so clearly other airlines still
don't care a whole lot.
Adrian
--
www.adrianlegg.com
From: Tom Loredo <loredo@astro...>
Subject: Re: Flying United
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:19:33 -0500
Organization: Cornell University
Deb Cowan wrote:
>
> Maybe US Airways will be as nice when I fly to the UK in March.
I took a Baby Taylor with me on a recent trip via US Air, and had
a slight problem at Ithaca's airport (US Air Express). They said
it was too big and had to be checked, but I pointed out that I'd
recently flown with them and had no problem on all legs of an
international flight, so the counter attendant let me take it on
board. There was no trouble at the other airports, either way
(Pittsburgh, SFO, Logan). I was a bit surprised that I had even
a little trouble with a Baby Taylor, though.
Peace,
Tom
From: Chris Callahan <chriscal@NO_SPAMrfci...>
Subject: Re: Flying United
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 15:23:16 -0500
> >
> > Maybe US Airways will be as nice when I fly to the UK in March.
> >
> > Deb
>
> Bankruptcy usually results in the realization that the customer pays your
> salary. :-)
>
> Steve Hawkins
I was going to say that, but Steve beat me to the punch, or err, keyboard. I
travelled with my Martin OOO US Airways last Labor Day weekend and had
absolutely no trouble, despite very crowded planes outbound and coming back.
I noticed that US Airways seemed to be going overboard in the courtesy
department at SFO and Charlotte. Two friends of mine are US Airways pilots,
and when I mentioned this improved courtesy to them, they acknowledged that
the company, post bankrupcty filing, was trying to go the extra mile in that
department.
Of course, what with possibilities of war and more terrorist attacks, things
can change in a hurry.
Chris
| Carrying instruments on airplanes - now easier? [8] |
|---|
From: Peter MacDonald <pjmacd1@insightbb...>
Subject: Carrying instruments on airplanes - now easier?
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 08:32:06 GMT
Organization: Insight Broadband
Forgive me if this has been posted before, but I don't remember seeing
it.
Carrying your instrument on a plane may just have gotten a whole lot
easier (at least on U.S. carriers) with this document in your hand.
http://www.local1000.com/carryon.html
Peter
From: Richard Brooker <vejup@optonline...>
Subject: Re: Carrying instruments on airplanes - now easier?
Date: 30 Mar 2003 07:36:47 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
Thanks, Peter. I printed out the document, and put it in my case, for
future use if needed.
I was surprised that British Air let me carry on my Calton case both
to and from UK6. Both times, they said they had to check - one asked a
supervisor, another checked her computer. I think they were checking
to see if the flights were full, and they weren't. The case fit easily
in the big overhead compartment.
Richard Brooker
From: Steve Hawkins <res0pf02@verizon...>
Subject: Re: Carrying instruments on airplanes - now easier?
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:40:32 GMT
<ndraper@prodigy...> (Norman Draper) wrote in
news:<4eb2e96b.0303301030.121624f3@posting...>:
> Richard,
> Which size Calton was that? I really wonder if my Dread case would
> fit in one of those compartments...
>
> Norman Draper
>
>
>> I was surprised that British Air let me carry on my Calton case both
>> to and from UK6. Both times, they said they had to check - one asked a
>> supervisor, another checked her computer. I think they were checking
>> to see if the flights were full, and they weren't. The case fit easily
>> in the big overhead compartment.
>>
>> Richard Brooker
The American Airlines planes I flew on would not have allowed my jumbo
Calton to go in the overhead. I was asked if I wanted to carry my guitar
on the plane but said no. It would have fit in the first class closet but
the reason I have a Calton is so I can check it and not worry about it.
It's too big to move around in coach and I don't have to carry it
everywhere I go in the airport. I spent 8 hours total waiting in the
Chicago airport. Carrying the guitar around with me would have been a real
pain. Richard plays a small body Lowden. He has a classical or OM sized
Calton. Your dread case is probably about the same size as my jumbo.
Check it and don't worry about it. I didn't even lock it up this trip. I
did buy a Colorado Case cover for it to protect the latches though.
Steve Hawkins
From: Richard Brooker <vejup@optonline...>
Subject: Re: Carrying instruments on airplanes - now easier?
Date: 30 Mar 2003 17:05:13 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
> Which size Calton was that? I really wonder if my Dread case would
> fit in one of those compartments...
>
> Norman Draper
Norman,
My guitar is a small Lowden S model, about the size of a classical.
The case fit in the overhead compartment with room to spare.
It was heavy to schlep all over the UK, but that's another story...
Richard
From: JOHNPEARSE <johnpearse@aol...>
Subject: Re: Carrying instruments on airplanes - now easier?
Date: 31 Mar 2003 22:33:43 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Unfortunately baggage handlers are beginning to realise that a Calton case
probably contains a guitar worth stealing. That's why I always fly with an old
0 or 00 size Martin in a small Calton....which will fit in the overhead
compartment of most planes.
The case is covered with embarrassingly trashy adolescent stickers and looks
like a student's crappo thrasher....just in case it does have to ride with the
baggage.
John Pearse.
From: Larry Pattis <LarryPattis@nospam...>
Subject: Re: Carrying instruments on airplanes - now easier?
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:08:32 -0800
In article <<20030331173343.28021.00000076@mb-ci...>>, JOHNPEARSE
<<johnpearse@aol...>> wrote:
> Unfortunately baggage handlers are beginning to realise that a Calton case
> probably contains a guitar worth stealing. That's why I always fly with an old
> 0 or 00 size Martin in a small Calton....which will fit in the overhead
> compartment of most planes.
> The case is covered with embarrassingly trashy adolescent stickers and looks
> like a student's crappo thrasher....just in case it does have to ride with the
> baggage.
> John Pearse.
I cover my Calton with a Blue Heron form-fitted (and slightly padded)
case cover. Even the baggage handlers don't see my taxi-cab yellow
Calton any more....
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
Guitar Odyssey
http://www.LarryPattis.com
From: Steve Hawkins <res0pf02@verizon...>
Subject: Re: Carrying instruments on airplanes - now easier?
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 02:27:11 GMT
Larry Pattis <<LarryPattis@nospam...>> wrote in
news:310320031708323654%<LarryPattis@nospam...>:
> In article <<20030331173343.28021.00000076@mb-ci...>>, JOHNPEARSE
> <<johnpearse@aol...>> wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately baggage handlers are beginning to realise that a Calton
>> case probably contains a guitar worth stealing. That's why I always
>> fly with an old 0 or 00 size Martin in a small Calton....which will
>> fit in the overhead compartment of most planes.
>> The case is covered with embarrassingly trashy adolescent stickers
>> and looks like a student's crappo thrasher....just in case it does
>> have to ride with the baggage.
>> John Pearse.
>
>
>
> I cover my Calton with a Blue Heron form-fitted (and slightly padded)
> case cover. Even the baggage handlers don't see my taxi-cab yellow
> Calton any more....
>
I use a case cover also. One ticket agent was concerned when I checked my
guitar. She thought it was in a gig bag! :-)
Steve Hawkins
From: Stonker7 <stonker7@aol...>
Subject: Re: Carrying instruments on airplanes - now easier?
Date: 30 Mar 2003 19:55:51 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
This really is great news. I am a bit curious though, why the size of the
instrument was never addressed.
I guess it is assumed that rationality would prevail as well as the standard
rules that it has to fit in an overhead bin or in a closet ... if closet space
is available.
You'd still have to have it placed with the cargo, if on some of the really
small puddle-jumpers, where the bins are so small, a briefcase barely fits and
there are no closets.
The real break-thru here really is the statment : " ... to allow musical
instruments as carry-on baggage IN ADDITION TO the limit of one carry-on bag
and one personal item ..."
We get to drag on one more bag than everyone else ... cool.
Fred Albert
| Airline question [4] |
|---|
From: Geoff Arnold <geoffSPAMarnold@hotmail...>
Subject: Airline question
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:49:23 -0700
Organization: Sun Microsystems Corporation
Hi, group members;
If you have travelled on Alaska Airlines, can you give me the skinny on guitar
transport? I will be travelling from LA to Seattle (and back) at the end of the
month and was wondering if I can carry on my bag and my Taylor dread in HSC.
Will the flight attendants groan? Will they provide a space for the guitar? Will
then require I put it under the plane in baggage?
Let me know your experiences.
Thanks,
--fletch
From: Larry Pattis <LarryPattis@nospam...>
Subject: Re: Airline question
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:38:42 -0700
In article <<3E9B02B3.9040403@hotmail...>>, Geoff Arnold
<<geoffSPAMarnold@hotmail...>> wrote:
> Hi, group members;
>
> If you have travelled on Alaska Airlines, can you give me the skinny on
> guitar
> transport? I will be travelling from LA to Seattle (and back) at the end of
> the
> month and was wondering if I can carry on my bag and my Taylor dread in HSC.
>
> Will the flight attendants groan? Will they provide a space for the guitar?
> Will
> then require I put it under the plane in baggage?
>
> Let me know your experiences.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --fletch
>
Disclaimer:
Never flown on this airlines.
Unasked for advice:
Check your bag, please don't be greedy.
8-)
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
Guitar Odyssey
http://www.LarryPattis.com
From: DJ <dajohnson53@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Airline question
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:51:34 -0800
Organization: Hisse'f
"Geoff Arnold" <<geoffSPAMarnold@hotmail...>> wrote in message
news:<3E9B02B3.9040403@hotmail...>...
> Hi, group members;
>
> If you have travelled on Alaska Airlines, can you give me the skinny on
guitar
> transport? I will be travelling from LA to Seattle (and back) at the end
of the
> month and was wondering if I can carry on my bag and my Taylor dread in
HSC.
>
> Will the flight attendants groan? Will they provide a space for the
guitar? Will
> then require I put it under the plane in baggage?
>
> Let me know your experiences.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --fletch
I've only had to gate check one or two times in probably 30 legs that I've
flown on AK with my guitars. And the gate check was "real" gate checking -
drop it off at the airplane door and pick it up there, without going through
the baggage system. I gotta believe it was handled very little and with
little risk.
I agree with what you read around here as conventional wisdom: (1) don't let
them stop you at the ticket counter, security, gate, etc. I honestly
believe that some of these folks don't realize that the case will fit
overhead. I always adopt the attitude that people who try to stop you don't
really know this. Say you "are always able to carry it on no problem,
you've done it many times on their airline, etc." (2) plan ahead and get a
seat in the rear of the plane so you can board as early as possible. Or, if
you're an Alaska Airlines MVP, take advantage of early boarding. (3) Be
nice to the gate personnel and flight attendants.
The gate personnel almost always pay no attention to the guitar. There were
a few times that the gate attendant told me to gate check the guitar rather
than carry it on. I don't really argue at that point - just let them tag it
and then I carry it to the airplane door (which is where Alaska Airlines
does the drop off and pick up for gate checking). I just walk to the cabin
and stow it in the overhead, usually without a second look from the cabin
attendant (if they do look it's to [jokingly] ask me to play or to ask if I
need help!). As I said above, in just a couple of cases, the cabin
attendant wasn't able to accommodate me and the gate checking was low risk.
DJ
From: Jim McCrain <jimSPAMGUARD@mccrain...>
Subject: Re: Airline question
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:54:39 GMT
On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:49:23 -0700, Geoff Arnold
<<geoffSPAMarnold@hotmail...>> wrote:
>Hi, group members;
>
>If you have travelled on Alaska Airlines, can you give me the skinny on guitar
>transport? I will be travelling from LA to Seattle (and back) at the end of the
>month and was wondering if I can carry on my bag and my Taylor dread in HSC.
>
>Will the flight attendants groan? Will they provide a space for the guitar? Will
>then require I put it under the plane in baggage?
>
>Let me know your experiences.
Your experience will vary depending upon who is at the Check-In
counter. I have flown Alaska Airlines several times. On all but one
flight, there were no problems. On my LAST flight with them (and it
WILL be the LAST flight with them!) the check-in person deleiberately
over-charged me on my luggage. He claimed it had exceeded the weight
limit, but the scale clearly showed it to be 5 pounds UNDER the limit.
When I brought this to his attention, he very clearly stated that I
would not be allowed to board the plane. He would not process my
ticket any further! I had to go outside the terminal, call the
airlines, get in touch with a supervisor, and eventually got on the
plane. It took four months before I got a refund ($100) for the
overcharge.
Like I said, your experience will vary depending on who you "draw" at
the ticket counter. The flights and flight attendants have always
been very good. But I won't fly with them again because of one
bast*rd check-in person.
Jim "Still Love Alaska" McCrain
**************************
Remove SPAMGUARD to reply.
**************************
| Flying with guitars [14] |
|---|
From: Jeff Carter <jeffretrac@aol...>
Subject: Flying with guitars
Date: 09 May 2003 03:03:56 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Okay, I knew I should've been paying attention to all those posts about getting
guitars on planes, but I kept thinking it wouldn't affect me. Well, next month
I have to get on a plane with a guitar, a handmade classical at that (playing
in a couple of masterclasses so I can't take my beater). I am at a loss as to
what to expect when I get to the airport.
I googled a bit on the subject, but wanted to see if anyone had any recent
experiences that might help me. My main question I guess is, can I or can I
not, carry a guitar in a hardshell case on with me? And if I can't, what kind
of precautions should I take when checking it? Wrap it up with the 50 rolls of
duct tape I got a couple of months ago? (j/k) Someone mentioned gate-checking
it, but then someone else said they don't allow that anymore. Anyone know?
Many thanks in advance,
Jeff
From: Hussman <dfhussey1@attbinospan...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 04:39:36 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband
"Jeff Carter" <<jeffretrac@aol...>> wrote in message
news:<20030508231742.09412.00000058@mb-m21...>...
> Oh btw, I'm flying United, round trip --Raleigh/Baltimore, if that helps.
I flew United to New Orleans from San Jose in February and was able to carry
on a hardshell.
Security has been getting tighter lately, but if you make it past the
security station, try to board the plane as early as possible so you can
take advantage of overhead bin/closet space. So if they say boarding rows
25 and higher and you're on row 10, go ahead and get on.
Dennis
From: Tom E <nottom_egel@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 16:53:54 -0400
"Rudi Cheow" <<newsgroupsKILLSPAM@rudicheow...>> wrote in message
news:<a54d1e61.0305090545.6c969dd@posting...>...
> >
> > So if they say boarding rows
> > 25 and higher and you're on
> > row 10, go ahead and get on.
> >
>
> And if everyone did that you'd have a barrage of people trying to get
> into the plane at once.
>
> I'm sure these regulations are there for a reason and that they
> stagger the boarding for the sake of order.
>
> We all paid for the airline ticket and we all have the same right to
> the overhead compartments - if one needs preferential treatment then
> one needs to pay for a higher class of ticket.
>
> <rant over>
>
> Rudi
As soon as you can get everyone sitting in the back of the plane to put
their stuff in their own overhead instead of over my seat when its up front,
then I'll gladly wait until it's my turn to board. On just about every
flight I see some one get on board, put their stuff in the first overhead
they find, then proceed to the back of the empty plane. What's that
about?!? The real problem is that, except for safety, there are few
consistently enforced regulations when aboard an airline. My experience has
been when it comes to how customers are treated, the airlines seem to
operate on a set of guidelines that are open to interpretation. Why else
would bringing a guitar on board be perfectly acceptable one day and
forbidden the next (or vice versa)? I say until they can come up with a set
of rules that do not change based on the mood of the person in charge that
day, do whatever you have to to make sure your guitar arrives safely. If
that means boarding when it's not your "turn", so be it.
--Tom E.
From: Tom E <nottom_egel@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 00:11:07 -0400
"Jeff Carter" <<jeffretrac@aol...>> wrote in message
news:<20030508230356.09447.00000049@mb-m21...>...
> Okay, I knew I should've been paying attention to all those posts about
getting
> guitars on planes, but I kept thinking it wouldn't affect me. Well, next
month
> I have to get on a plane with a guitar, a handmade classical at that
(playing
> in a couple of masterclasses so I can't take my beater). I am at a loss as
to
> what to expect when I get to the airport.
>
> I googled a bit on the subject, but wanted to see if anyone had any recent
> experiences that might help me. My main question I guess is, can I or can
I
> not, carry a guitar in a hardshell case on with me? And if I can't, what
kind
> of precautions should I take when checking it? Wrap it up with the 50
rolls of
> duct tape I got a couple of months ago? (j/k) Someone mentioned
gate-checking
> it, but then someone else said they don't allow that anymore. Anyone know?
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> Jeff
I have not tried traveling with a full size acoustic, although I did
recently bring a Telecaster in a gig bag board with no problem. On recent
trips, I've have seen other people in the gate area with full size
acoustics, so they must be either getting them on board or gate-checking
them (Duh, I guess I should have asked).
If it were me, I would buy a gigbag. They certainly can't make you check
that, and it does reduce the size quite a bit. If you're worried about
protection, there are some good ones out there. I've had my eye on the
Summit (http://www.elderly.com/accessories/items/SGP1.htm) for an upcoming
trip.
Also, I've attached an old rmmga post below that may be of help.
Happy trails.
--Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter MacDonald" <<pjmacd1@insightbb...>>
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 3:32 AM
Subject: Carrying instruments on airplanes - now easier?
> Forgive me if this has been posted before, but I don't remember seeing
> it.
>
> Carrying your instrument on a plane may just have gotten a whole lot
> easier (at least on U.S. carriers) with this document in your hand.
>
> http://www.local1000.com/carryon.html
>
> Peter
From: Tom E <nottom_egel@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:24:23 -0400
<snip>
> Also, I've attached an old rmmga post below that may be of help.
>
> Happy trails.
> --Tom
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter MacDonald" <<pjmacd1@insightbb...>>
> Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 3:32 AM
> Subject: Carrying instruments on airplanes - now easier?
>
>
> > Forgive me if this has been posted before, but I don't remember seeing
> > it.
> >
> > Carrying your instrument on a plane may just have gotten a whole lot
> > easier (at least on U.S. carriers) with this document in your hand.
> >
> > http://www.local1000.com/carryon.html
> >
> > Peter
>
>
>
Looks like they changed the link. Here's the new location:
http://www.local1000.com/carryon.php
--Tom E.
From: Yorkshireman <me@privacy...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 09:34:10 +0100
1. Get a seat towards the back of the plane.
2. Say nothing at check in.
3. If asked say "I'm always allowed to carry this on".
Has never failed me.......even with a Calton case.......except on a Virgin
flight Orlando/Manchester when I had 3 guitars (including an Olson SJ and
Martin OM42PS). Even on this flight they told me to go to the gate with
them. The flight was full and 747 overhead storage doesn't have bins long
enough to take a Calton so they very carefully took them away and they were
brought out by hand after we landed.
Chris
"Jeff Carter" <<jeffretrac@aol...>> wrote in message
news:<20030508230356.09447.00000049@mb-m21...>...
> Okay, I knew I should've been paying attention to all those posts about
getting
> guitars on planes, but I kept thinking it wouldn't affect me. Well, next
month
> I have to get on a plane with a guitar, a handmade classical at that
(playing
> in a couple of masterclasses so I can't take my beater). I am at a loss as
to
> what to expect when I get to the airport.
>
> I googled a bit on the subject, but wanted to see if anyone had any recent
> experiences that might help me. My main question I guess is, can I or can
I
> not, carry a guitar in a hardshell case on with me? And if I can't, what
kind
> of precautions should I take when checking it? Wrap it up with the 50
rolls of
> duct tape I got a couple of months ago? (j/k) Someone mentioned
gate-checking
> it, but then someone else said they don't allow that anymore. Anyone know?
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> Jeff
From: Al Carruth <alcarruth@aol...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: 09 May 2003 13:01:49 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Back in January, when the Transportation Security Agency was working out new
rules for carry-ons the president of the American Federation of Musicians got
in touch and put in a plea for allowing instruments in the cabins. Apparently
they've been cracking down on the real culprits in the overhead crowding
problem (business people who won't check anything, and carry all of their
stuff in soft-sided bags) since before 9/11. That disaster has, of course,
given the authorites more clout, and the overheads, I'm told, are less packed
these days.
Anyway, the head of the TSA put out a letter in response to the AFM plea that
reads, in part:
"On Dec. 20, 2002, TSA instructed aircraft operators that effective
immediately, they are to allow musical instruments as carry-on baggage in
addition to the limit of one bag and one personal item per person as carry-on
baggage on an aircraft."
A friend sent me a copy, but I understand that both letters are now posted on
line, although I don't know the URL.
This looks pretty cut and dried, and I've heard that it works, at least for
things like violins. I _have not_ flown myself with a guitar since this came
out, nor have I spoken directly with anyone that has, so I can't say what the
situtaion is. However, it looks hopeful, at least.
Obviously we _have_ the be reasonable. All you guys with tubas and upright
basses are just going to have to be understanding. There are limits to the
space on an airplane, and the pilot is _always_ the last word, _whatever_ the
regs say.
I'd say the best course would be to hope for the best and prepare for the
worst. Try to get yourself a copy of the reg: it takes time to get the word
out. I'm not sure what to do about hardshell cases: on the one hand if you have
one you're in better shape if they decide you can't take it aboard, on the
other hand, if you have one they may be more likely to bump the instrument into
the cargo bay. I have heard of flight attendants putting things in the crew
closet when they won't fit in the overheads, but hey may not want to make room
for a big Calton Dread case. It's a tough call.
One issue that surfaced on a viola list was that musicians were asked on some
occasions to take the strings off carry-on instruments, as they could be used
to garrotte somebody. One woman had to resort to tears to get her instrument on
the plane intact. That may have been a short-lived abberation, but it's
something to be aware of.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
http://www.alcarruthluthier.com
From: Brent Barkow <bbarkow.news.invalid@web2news...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 16:42:50 +0200
Organization: Web2news.com
> Okay, I knew I should've been paying attention to all
> those posts about getting
> guitars on planes, but I kept thinking it wouldn't affect
> me.snip
Here's how this guy does it:
http://timberens.com/essays/miscellaneoustips.htm
Just scroll down the page a bit to find the tip.
Brent
--
Direct access to this group with http://web2news.com
http://web2news.com/?rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
To contact in private, remove no+-7spp4a9m
From: Andrew Wang <andrew_wang@*.com>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 14:46:35 GMT
Jeff,
There are many, many factors that are beyond your control. In my opinion,
the two major being how full the flight is and the personnel you encounter
on your way to the gate and on your way onboard. The newer planes that I've
travelled on recently have had smaller overhead bins that could handle a
gigbag but not a HSC.
Basically, dealing with the factors I stated above is like taking a roll of
the dice. I've been lucky in most cases (since Sept. 11th). I've travelled
with a guitar on 3-4 occassions and have been able to bring my HSC or gigbag
onboard. The time my HSC did not fit in the overhead, I was lucky that a
flight attendant volunteered to stow it in the 1st class closet.
Basically you need to be prepared for the worst but hope for the best. Be
courteous to the gatekeepers and you'll increase your odds. Read
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenMaint/Packing/packing1.html for
good packing tips. I'd suggest using blue painters tape over duct tape if
you choose to tape up your case (protect the latches). Less residue.
Be aware that many airlines are tightening up their rules on baggage and
carry-ons. For example, several airlines have lowered the weight maximums
on checked baggage from 80lbs to 50lbs. They could potentially hit you with
an additional fee (~$80) for odd size luggage, i.e. your guitar.
Good luck,
Andy
--
www.TaroPatch.net
online community dedicated to Hawaiian slack key guitar and `ukulele
andrew_wang@*.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Replace *.com with hotmail.com to reply to me by email
From: Jonathan (ihatespam) <jonathan_kendall@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 10:10:24 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
"Andrew Wang" <andrew_wang@*.com> wrote in message
news:fbPua.126$<rV2.58@nwrdny01...>...
> Basically you need to be prepared for the worst but hope for the best. Be
> courteous to the gatekeepers and you'll increase your odds. Read
> http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenMaint/Packing/packing1.html
for
> good packing tips. I'd suggest using blue painters tape over duct tape if
> you choose to tape up your case (protect the latches). Less residue.
>
I think if you check the case, when they go through the security scan
they're likely just going to cut the tape to inspect the case... If you have
the tab on one of the latches where you can put a padlock, I think if you
put a zip tie through it, they can cut the zip tie and will replace it with
a new zip tie after inspection. (I think I read that on the American
Airlines website, or maybe it was the TSA website)...
For a nice handmade classical, I might think about buying another seat for
the guitar... Expensive but probably the least risky way to travel.
jonathan
From: Kurt Penner <kurt.penner@home...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 15:59:35 GMT
Organization: Shaw Residential Internet
Ironically, many have reported that airlines will screw you with this
strategy also. After buying the extra seat, the airline attendants onboard
have been know to STILL demand that the instrument is unsafe in the cabin
and therefore must go in the overhead bin or elsewhere. Moreover, they have
been known to do this to accomodate another passenger in the seat that you
paid for in a flight that has been overbooked.
Here's another link about the experiences classical guitarist Manuel
Barrueco has had with guitars and airlines:
http://www.barrueco.com/ontheroad.shtml
Scroll down to the section called Jan/Feb 2002.
Kurt Penner
>
> For a nice handmade classical, I might think about buying another seat for
> the guitar... Expensive but probably the least risky way to travel.
>
> jonathan
>
>
From: csj <chaya@san...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: 9 May 2003 17:43:35 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
Two weeks ago I flew on Southwest with a guitar. I had no problem any
where in the process - not at check-in, security, or on board the
flight.
Even though the new regs say you can take an instrument with you in
addition to your carry on and personal item (purse, laptop, etc.), I
checked my luggage. The flight attendants and your fellow passengers
will be a lot nicer to you if they don't think you are taking more
than your fair share of overhead space. And if it's a full flight,
then they might just tell you there isn't enough room.
Also keep in mind that you aren't allowed to carry on wire-cutters or
nail clips or files, so if you want those things on your trip, you'll
have to put them in checked luggage.
The most important thing is to maintain a good attitude - people are
responding to that as much as anything else. Airlines are hurting so
much, they are being really accomodating as long as you don't over do
it.
csj
From: Alan Marshall <bromley@northworthy...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:17:44 +0100
Hi All
I can't help noticing a long and often repeated thread on this
subject.
A few years ago I wrote a series of articles for UK's Guitar Magazine
on this and related subjects. I hold copywright on these, so here are
the raw articles, not exactly as published, but I refuse to type them
out again! Hope you find them of interest.
As the sun beats down on the roof of my workshop, and the beads of
sweat drip off my nose onto a freshly sanded guitar, my thoughts move
to the hoards of worried guitarist finding new cracks and blemishes in
their, up till recently, pristine axes. The phone will start to ring
soon, with tales of woe recounting how much care has been taken to
avoid these problems.
Much of the problem, though, is that few manufacturers, and fewer
retailers, bother to take the time to instil into their customers, the
importance of the effects that the weather can have on guitars,
especially acoustic ones.
Now lets dispel a few myths. Damp is not the biggest enemy of guitars,
nor is the cold.
The true enemies are excessively low humidity, high temperatures, and
rapid shifts of temperature and humidity, especially when the two are
combined!
So how do we avoid these problems in our highly volatile climate, and
how should we judge which effects of the weather are acceptable, and
what is potentially damaging?
Lets deal with the acceptable ones first, as, to a limited extent,
they can be a guide as to what is happening with the relative
humidity.
I feel sure that most of us have noticed how the tone of an acoustic
guitar changes from time to time, for no apparent reason. The strings
are new, your hands are dry, and the same old picks festoon the ends
of your fingers, and yet the guitar sounds as though it’s stuffed full
of cotton wool! A trip to the local health centre and a good syringing
of your ears seems to be in order. But no, you had that done last
week, besides which, the hi-fi still sounds as good as it did
yesterday, and the neighbours haven’t been banging on the walls
telling you to turn the bloody noise down.
So what is causing the problem?
Simple really, unless you have one of those new carbon fibre things,
or a cheapo made from Formica, it’s the wood that your axe is built
from, thinking it’s still out there in the forest and taking a drink
while the opportunity is there.
Hah, I hear you say, but my Ovagibaha has nearly a millimetre of
bombproof, beer-proof, waterproof polyester all over it, just like
that thing that Sir Alec Rose sailed round the world all those years
ago, and that didn’t suffer from the damp now, did it!
Well, we luthiers use a cunning ruse to spoil your fun. We start off
by bodging a dirty great hole (sometimes several of them) through the
top, and most of us can’t be bothered to spray the inside, thus
letting in the evil moisture!
The result of this ploy is that the wood takes a drink whenever it
can, and just like us, the more it drinks, the more trouble it has
focusing, it’s reactions slow down and the worse it sings, and because
what it drinks is free....It’s not fair is it?
Another effect of this overindulgence is, that just like our bellies,
the belly of your guitar expands, and because of the restrictions
imposed on it by the sides and the bracing, it sticks out further and
the bridge rides up on top of this rising mass taking the strings with
it and the action goes up. Bummer, but at least you know now that it’s
not your fault.
What can be done to save us from these torments? Not a lot really. It
can help to keep a bag of silica gel in the case (you could even put
it in the guitar itself, but the cheap shaker effect is not terribly
endearing) with your guitar, which will absorb some of the moisture,
thus reducing the humidity while it is closed, but as soon as you open
it up, it won’t be long before the effects of drink start to be
noticed!
You could install some sort of air conditioning to control the
humidity where you keep the instrument, but it would probably be
cheaper to buy a Rainsong, and as soon as you take it out of this
climate controlled atmosphere, the cunning little sod will sneak a
drink or three if it can!
Now this might sound as though there is no saving your guitar from
these temptations, but in reality, there aren’t too many days in a
year when the effects are too obvious to your audience, even when you
notice them. Guitars also rarely suffer hangovers.
Far worse than this overindulgence, is the effects of too low a
moisture content. In winter, sitting in your central heated house, the
relative humidity drops to levels which many instruments find a bit of
a strain. The fact is, that the majority of so called flat top guitars
actually have an arch built into the top, which serves not only to
strengthen its resistance to the pull of the strings and enhance its
tone, but also lets the top flatten a little when it dries to a
moisture content lower than when it was built.
Now to put this in some perspective, according to information I
gleaned about 20 years ago, a piece of quarter sawn Sitka spruce 16
inches wide, and 20 inches long (a typical dreadnought top size), will
change its dimensions significantly with humidity changes.
How much? Well, assuming that the temperature remains at a balmy 70
degrees Fahrenheit, if the relative humidity drops from a moderately
sweaty 70% to an arid 20% (not untypical) then the length, along the
grain, will shorten by about 0.006 inches (0.15mm), but at the same
time the width will reduce by a whopping 0.313 inches (7.9mm). This
sort of movement varies according to the particular wood, but happens
to them all. Now this reduction in the length puts hardly any strain
on the instrument at all, but that change in width can have alarming
results!
Most woods, including spruce, have a fairly high tensile strength when
measured along the grain, but very low strength across it. That is why
the grain in the top runs in the same direction as the pull exerted on
it by the strings.
Assuming that the guitar is built with some arch in the top, (I use a
20 foot radius), and then presuming that this transition from high to
low relative humidity takes place over a few days, then normally it
will cause few problems as the strain will be gently applied. Where it
does become a real problem, is if you get the same sort of drop in a
very short period.
I have had first hand experience of a guitar being subjected to this
type of rapid change in humidity. The guitar was left leaning against
a wall near to a patio door. Inside, the temperature was around 65
degrees, and the humidity probably about 50%. Outside it was just
below freezing. One of the owners children came in from the garden via
that patio door. Result, because of the temperature differential,
there was a slight drop in temperature in the room, but more
importantly, the humidity dropped to somewhere around 10%! About 20
seconds later, there was a sound like a whip cracking, and a 3 inch
long crack appeared in the back of the guitar!
Now I know that this may seem a pretty extreme example, but it’s not
nearly so rare as you might think. I see cases of similar types of
humidity shock related damage every year.
Go on then, ignore this advice and keep me in beer and ciggies, or
take heed of it and help me give up smoking, it’ll be good for my
health, and your wallet.
So you have a case, and your favourite acoustic languishes inside,
cocooned in luxurious plush velvet, and pillowed by the best quality
foam, blissfully oblivious of what is happening in the cold cruel
world outside.
You feel smug and content that nothing can go wrong as you set off on
your latest musical adventure to the local Blues session or folk club,
or maybe that long awaited gig in San Francisco.
Well it is still fraught with dangers out there. I recently covered
the issue of protection from impact damage, but other perils lurk when
you go out there, and quite a few at home as well!
The chances are that the micro-climate in the club, or your mates
house for that matter. is quite different to that in your house, and
it is this difference that can prove to be a problem.
Easy to deal with this one. Time is the answer. Make a cup of tea, or
open a bottle of Bud’, and put the world to rights for a little while
before getting down to playing.
Unless the conditions are pretty extreme, then simply allowing the
instrument 20 minutes or so still secure in the closed case before
getting involved in the session, or sound check, will allow the
conditions inside the case to slowly equalise with those outside.
Result? Little or no thermal or humidity shock to your axe. Those
water resistant seals on the case will only slow down the exchange of
atmosphere from inside to out and vice-versa, just what we want.
The same procedure when returning home should be practised, it’s not
just strange places your guitar finds stressful, it’s the change of
atmosphere. A comparable experience for us, is to emerge from a sauna
and jumping straight into an icy plunge pool. Hands up all those who
can do this without at least a small gasp.
Going abroad with your guitar?
If you have the luxury of travelling first class by ocean liner, then
apart from the precautions above, there is little to add, apart from
to be aware of the differing conditions in your air conditioned cabin
to those in the rest of the ship, it’s just like that trip to the folk
club, so be aware and take the same precautions.
That flight to Chicago for your next tour, however, is quite a
different story. If you can afford to buy your guitar its own seat,
then all well and good, but for most of us the chances are that it
will have to travel in the hold. Do ask though, if you can take it in
the cabin, some airlines are quite sympathetic to such requests,
especially when the plane isn’t full, but don’t presume, take
precautions early.
Start by buying yourself a guitar humidifier (not a bad idea anyway)
that can live in the case for the duration of the journey. Can’t find
one? There is a simple alternative. Take one ordinary face cloth, one
plastic sandwich bag and an elastic band. Soak the face cloth, and
squeeze out to the point where it is still pretty wet but not
dripping. Place this in the butty bag, and fold over the end. Secure
with the elastic band, and, if desired, puncture the bag about 5 or 6
times with a pin. Voila, your cheapo humidifier is ready to protect!
Get to the airport early. I know, the airline have already told you to
do this, but it really is important in this case. This will give you
plenty of time to try and persuade them at the check-in desk to let
you take your guitar into the cabin.
However, if they won’t, or can't play ball, and insist that it has to
go in the hold, ask them if you can get the contents checked by the
customs.
Once checked, de-tune the instrument by a full tone and close the case
in front of them and seal all the way round the lid with wide PVC
tape. This done, ask them to label it as checked, and ask if it can be
loaded and unloaded by hand.
With any luck, this will protect it pretty well from the ravages of
the flight and assuming the case is up to the job and the baggage
handlers are reasonably gentle with it, it should survive the
experience non the worse for wear.
When you arrive at your destination and preferably before you leave
the airport, remove the tape and wait for about 20 minutes and open
the case to check that all is OK. You can’t hold the airline
responsible for humidity related injuries, but if there is any sign of
impact or handling damage, it is a lot easier to make a claim against
them on the spot, than when you arrive at your final destination.
Using this procedure, one of my customers, has travelled by air more
than a hundred times over the last 6 or 7 years, and the only damage
suffered by the guitar was when it took a dive from the stage into an
orchestra pit, breaking off the headstock. Aside from this, it has
only been adjusted once in its life. So, you see, it really works!
The other obvious danger zone is the back seat of a car. Nestled in
its case the guitar seems safe, but the sun shining in through the
window can heat up the case and its contents a frightening amount in a
very short time. A simple cure for this problem is to cover the case
with a white sheet, or slip it into one of those aluminium foil type
survival bags that you can find at the local army stores. Another
alternative, especially if your travels take you to hot countries, is
to buy a white case, rare I grant you, but some makers (notably
Calton) can supply them.
It may seem a lot of hassle, but it’s worth it. I know guitars are
replaceable, but who wants the trouble of finding another one to
replace an old friend who you have trained in your ways, and fits you
like an old pair of slippers?
Travelling With Your Guitar
Every now and again the call comes, whether it’s a trip down to the
local Folk Club, or that session gig over in Nashville. A new set of
strings are hurriedly fitted to your axe, out comes the gig bag, and
off you go to the bus stop.
But wait a minute, is that faithful old Yamaha really safe in there?
As a maker, I always suggest to customers, that they really ought to
have a good quality hard case to get their new guitar around in
safety. As a repairer, I see some of the horrors resulting from
inadequate protection.
Take for instance, the recent case of the D28 snow board. The lucky
owner of a Brazilian Rosewood 1953 Martin D28, decided to go off to a
local session. Owing to floods, he was unable to go by car, and so set
off on foot, via a local short cut, well wrapped up against the
driving rain and snow. But the guitar? Yes you’ve got it, rather than
lug that heavy old hard case up the hill for 2 miles or so, he wrapped
it up in a soft case, and a couple of bin liners, and strapped it on
his back, ruck sack style.
On the return journey, whilst traversing a particularly slippery part
of the path, he slipped and fell backwards, and despite his best
efforts, landed firmly on his beloved old guitar, sliding several
yards before coming to a halt.
When he arrived at my workshop, we unwrapped the poor old thing, to
find that the neck had broken off through the heel and dovetail, and
the body was crushed to about an inch and a half less than its’ normal
depth. The back was split and had broken across the bottom of the neck
block, and the top had several new cracks.
Needless to say, this proved a challenging repair for me, and an
expensive one for him!
Had the guitar been in a good quality hard case, I have no doubt that
the damage would have been reduced significantly, and may even have
been limited to the case itself.
So, what makes for a good case?
The first requirement for most people, is to ensure that the case can
be lifted without the aid of a fork lift truck! If it’s so heavy that
you are reluctant, or unable to carry it up a couple of flights of
stairs, then you may be less than inclined to go out with your
instrument thus reducing the chances of it getting damaged. But that’s
not the point. However, there are a few simple rules to ensure maximum
protection, without breaking the bank, or your back.
Second, the case must fit the guitar properly. Now this might be a
problem with some of the more unusual instruments, but it is vitally
important that you get the best possible fit. Try dropping an egg in
an egg box (put an elastic band around it to stop the lid falling
open), from about 3 feet onto a hard floor, and there is a very good
chance that it will survive long enough for you to get it into the
frying pan. Try the same again, but with the egg in a loose fitting,
but strong box, and you will find that it is ready for scrambling,
once you have picked out the shattered shell! (This experiment doesn’t
work with ostrich eggs, you need to drop them from about 15 feet!).
The same applies to guitars, especially acoustics.
The guitar should fit the case snugly, not so tight that its hard to
push into place, but with no room for it to move around. If you find
it difficult to get a case to fit, and can’t afford a custom built
one, then it’s remarkable what can be done to improve things with a
carefully rolled duster, or hunks of foam. Don’t forget to check for
rattles with the lid fastened, and that the lid doesn’t apply undue
pressure itself. I’ve had to repair broken necks on electric’s that
haven’t been supported properly, and when the lid is shut..... you
have been warned!
Third, it must be rigid and strong enough to resist any hazards that
it will encounter during the normal day to day use that it’ll have to
cope with. If you are only going to use it to store the instrument
around the house, and for the occasional trip to the local folk club,
then the plywood and moulded plastic type of case is likely to be up
to the job. If on the other hand, you are out on the road, travelling
with a van load of PA gear, amps, drum kits etc., then if your
instrument is going to survive into old age, it is very important that
you invest in a flight case. You may be diligent in strapping
everything down, and putting the lightest things to the top of the
pile, but when Mrs Smiths moggy rushes out in front, and your
reactions take over, a slope fronted 4 x 12 can be devastating in
flight, get my drift?
Remember this, Gig bags are great for keeping little brothers jammy
fingers from making your neck less than slick. They do a great job in
stopping your axe getting too dusty. Some are even capable of keeping
out all but the worst excesses of the weather, heavily padded ones do
offer some protection, but none that I have seen are suitable for
stopping that low flying amp, or allowing you to drop your axe on the
pavement when you trip on the way back from the pub.
There are loads of great cases out there, some cheaper than top
quality gig bags, most well capable of protecting your guitar from
normal knocks and bangs, some will even take the weight of a
Derbyshire guitar maker in full flight!
Don’t trust to luck, treat your guitar, and carry it with confidence
that you will still be able to play it when you get to the gig.
So now you know about cases, we’ll look at actually transporting your
pride and joy safely in its’ case, in a later article.
Best Wishes, --
Alan Marshall
web page http://www.northworthy.com
e-mail <info@northworthy...> 09 May 2003 03:03:56 GMT,
<jeffretrac@aol...> (Jeff Carter) wrote:
>Okay, I knew I should've been paying attention to all those posts about getting
>guitars on planes, but I kept thinking it wouldn't affect me. Well, next month
>I have to get on a plane with a guitar, a handmade classical at that (playing
>in a couple of masterclasses so I can't take my beater). I am at a loss as to
>what to expect when I get to the airport.
>
>I googled a bit on the subject, but wanted to see if anyone had any recent
>experiences that might help me. My main question I guess is, can I or can I
>not, carry a guitar in a hardshell case on with me? And if I can't, what kind
>of precautions should I take when checking it? Wrap it up with the 50 rolls of
>duct tape I got a couple of months ago? (j/k) Someone mentioned gate-checking
>it, but then someone else said they don't allow that anymore. Anyone know?
>
>Many thanks in advance,
>Jeff
Best Wishes, --
Alan Marshall
web site http://www.northworthy.com
e-mail <info@northworthy...>
From: Hans Andersson <handers@tulane...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars
Date: 10 May 2003 12:20:58 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
<jeffretrac@aol...> (Jeff Carter) wrote in message news:<<20030508230356.09447.00000049@mb-m21...>>...
> Okay, I knew I should've been paying attention to all those posts about getting
> guitars on planes, but I kept thinking it wouldn't affect me. Well, next month
> I have to get on a plane with a guitar, a handmade classical at that (playing
> in a couple of masterclasses so I can't take my beater). I am at a loss as to
> what to expect when I get to the airport.
I have flown about 10x in past 2y with guitar (Froggy in TKT
hardshell). I never check it and have had no problems getting it on
board in the overhead. The new agreement between FCC and some
musicians group also suggested that musical instruments may be carried
on.
A few tips:
1. be ready to board as early as you can. Get in before the overheads
are full. This is prob the biggest prob so don;t be late or the last
one on board.
2. be very courteous and check out the plane type. There is a website
which lists the few older model planes that have too small overheads.
But I have only once in 20y found one of those. The usual overhead
will accomodate a Hiscox which I believe is as big as any case on the
outside.
3. Do not EVER take a soft case or gigbag in the unlikely case that
you have to gate check. If you must gate check (I have had to do this
once in over 50flights), loosen the strings and have the headstock
reinforced with packing material on both sides. Go to frets.com if you
haven't seen this done.
happy flying,
hans
| R: Flying with guitars [2] |
|---|
From: Giacomo Fiore <jflowerREMOVE@tin...>
Subject: R: Flying with guitars
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 03:15:44 +0200
Organization: Tiscali Spa
Jeff Carter <<jeffretrac@aol...>> wrote in message
<20030508230356.09447.00000049@mb-m21...>...
> Someone mentioned gate-checking
> it, but then someone else said they don't allow that anymore. Anyone know?
Muriel Anderson once suggested me to ask for the guitar to be gate-checked
at the check in, then rip off the gate-checking tags at the boarding gate
and just tell the crew that you were allowed to bring the guitar onboard
with you. The only problem is when the guy who checks you in is the same
that boards you...:-/
Whatever, seems like it's worth a shot.
J
From: Al Carruth <alcarruth@aol...>
Subject: Re: R: Flying with guitars
Date: 10 May 2003 14:44:10 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Giocomo Fiore wrote:
<<Muriel Anderson once suggested ....>>
en Bonfield once got inot a run-in with a ticket agent, who had told him he
couldn't bring his guitar on board. Ken begged leave to ask at the gate, which
was grudgingly given. The gate asked the crew, and the crew stowed it in the
coat closet. After Ken had taken his seat on the aircraft the ticket agent came
on board, took the guitar out of the closet, and put it into the baggage
compartment. It was in a Calton case, so there was no damage, but Ken was
furious.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
| Carry on success |
|---|
From: John Sorell <j.sorellSPAMBEGONE@attbi...>
Subject: Carry on success
Date: 14 Jun 2003 19:44:57 GMT
I just returned from a business trip to Florida. I flew Continental,
connected in Houston, coming and going, and carried my Santa Cruz OO in a
Blue Heron gig bag (thanks again, Susan) on board without any problem.
This is about the fifth trip I have made carrying this guitar on
board...twice with Continental, twice on United, and once on Delta.
John
| Airlines and guitars [3] |
|---|
From: Chris Callahan <chriscal@NO_SPAMrfci...>
Subject: Airlines and guitars
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:09:19 -0400
Just got back from my annual trip to San Francisco.
I was not aware until this trip that if you do NOT carry your guitar on
board for the overhead bin, and ship it to your destination, if you lock the
case the airline security will in fact open the case.
So a word of caution: if you ship your guitar instead of carrying it
onboard, airport security will likely look in the case, and if it's locked,
they will open it anyway. So if you ship your guitar, don't lock it.
I was actually told by the Greenville/Spartanburg Delta guy who looked at my
Martin in a Calton case, that if I locked it and it became an issue, they'd
probably page me to come open it for them. So I left all five locks locked.
Unfortunately when I arrived in San Francisco, they had opened it anyway. I
know this because they put a security note inside the guitar case and blue
security tape on the outside of the case. Yet all locks were still locked.
Fortunately they didn't break either the case or the five Calton locks.
Do they have a tool to get in guitar cases, or just a lot of little keys
they use until they find one that works?
Kinda' interested in how they got in the case, then locked it back, without
damage to the locks or case.
Chris
From: Jonathan (ihatespam) <jonathan_kendall@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Airlines and guitars
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:01:57 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
"Chris Callahan" <<chriscal@NO_SPAMrfci...>> wrote in message
news:<tc-dnaxtqownWMGiRTvUqQ@rfci...>...
>
> Just got back from my annual trip to San Francisco.
>
> I was not aware until this trip that if you do NOT carry your guitar on
> board for the overhead bin, and ship it to your destination, if you lock
the
> case the airline security will in fact open the case.
>
> So a word of caution: if you ship your guitar instead of carrying it
> onboard, airport security will likely look in the case, and if it's
locked,
> they will open it anyway. So if you ship your guitar, don't lock it.
>
I don't know the style of locks on the Calton case, but if you have a case
that has the latch that will accomodate a padlock, you can put a zip tie in
there and they'll cut it when they do the security check, but will replace
it with a new zip tie... Doesn't keep someone out if they really want in,
but could keep the case from accidentally flying open when the baggage
handlers are doing their thing.
Jonathan
From: LP <lpcoates@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Airlines and guitars
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:15:54 -0600
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
Hi Chris:
I have a Calton case, and I have a suspicion that the locks aren't exactly
key-specific. A variety of keys will open mine! Maybe that's how the
airline got into yours.
Leigh
"Chris Callahan" <<chriscal@NO_SPAMrfci...>> wrote in message
news:<tc-dnaxtqownWMGiRTvUqQ@rfci...>...
>
> Just got back from my annual trip to San Francisco.
>
> I was not aware until this trip that if you do NOT carry your guitar on
> board for the overhead bin, and ship it to your destination, if you lock
the
> case the airline security will in fact open the case.
>
> So a word of caution: if you ship your guitar instead of carrying it
> onboard, airport security will likely look in the case, and if it's
locked,
> they will open it anyway. So if you ship your guitar, don't lock it.
>
> I was actually told by the Greenville/Spartanburg Delta guy who looked at
my
> Martin in a Calton case, that if I locked it and it became an issue,
they'd
> probably page me to come open it for them. So I left all five locks
locked.
>
> Unfortunately when I arrived in San Francisco, they had opened it anyway.
I
> know this because they put a security note inside the guitar case and blue
> security tape on the outside of the case. Yet all locks were still locked.
>
> Fortunately they didn't break either the case or the five Calton locks.
>
> Do they have a tool to get in guitar cases, or just a lot of little keys
> they use until they find one that works?
>
> Kinda' interested in how they got in the case, then locked it back,
without
> damage to the locks or case.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
| Largest guitar on an aircraft lately? [12] |
|---|
From: Matt Hayden <matthayden@hotmail...>
Subject: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: 19 Oct 2003 13:24:54 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com
I travel a bunch, and usually take a Larrivee Parlour. Sometimes it
goes in the hardshell case recommended by Wade, and sometimes a gig
bag. It's always gotten onto the aircraft so far.
However, I'm thinking about taking an OM on an upcoming trip and am
wondering whether or not anyone has been able to get one onto an
aircraft, either in a gig bag or (preferably) in a case. Anyone have
any stories/strategies to share?
Thanks
mh
From: Steve Hawkins <res0pf02@verizon...>
Subject: Re: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:47:37 GMT
<matthayden@hotmail...> (Matt Hayden) wrote in
news:<7302a7d8.0310191224.4ed6b4cc@posting...>:
> I travel a bunch, and usually take a Larrivee Parlour. Sometimes it
> goes in the hardshell case recommended by Wade, and sometimes a gig
> bag. It's always gotten onto the aircraft so far.
>
> However, I'm thinking about taking an OM on an upcoming trip and am
> wondering whether or not anyone has been able to get one onto an
> aircraft, either in a gig bag or (preferably) in a case. Anyone have
> any stories/strategies to share?
>
> Thanks
>
> mh
>
Matt, it's a crapshoot. You'll hear from folks who were successful and
those who weren't. Mark Hanson uses a high quality gig bag for his
Collings OM, dresses nice, is extremely polite and smiles a lot.
Me, I buy a Calton and check it. Bottom line for me is what's best for the
guitar in a worst case situation. If you travel a lot the law of averages
will catch up with you. If you're travelling with a $2K+ instrument a
Calton is cheap insurance.
Steve Hawkins
From: John Sorell <j.sorellSPAMBEGONE@attbi...>
Subject: Re: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: 19 Oct 2003 21:47:32 GMT
Steve Hawkins <<res0pf02@verizon...>> wrote in
news:<Xns94198E33464F4res0pf02verizonnet@199...>:
> <matthayden@hotmail...> (Matt Hayden) wrote in
> news:<7302a7d8.0310191224.4ed6b4cc@posting...>:
>
>> I travel a bunch, and usually take a Larrivee Parlour. Sometimes it
>> goes in the hardshell case recommended by Wade, and sometimes a gig
>> bag. It's always gotten onto the aircraft so far.
>>
>> However, I'm thinking about taking an OM on an upcoming trip and am
>> wondering whether or not anyone has been able to get one onto an
>> aircraft, either in a gig bag or (preferably) in a case. Anyone have
>> any stories/strategies to share?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> mh
>>
>
> Matt, it's a crapshoot. You'll hear from folks who were successful
> and those who weren't. Mark Hanson uses a high quality gig bag for
> his Collings OM, dresses nice, is extremely polite and smiles a lot.
>
> Me, I buy a Calton and check it. Bottom line for me is what's best
> for the guitar in a worst case situation. If you travel a lot the law
> of averages will catch up with you. If you're travelling with a $2K+
> instrument a Calton is cheap insurance.
>
> Steve Hawkins
I've had total success carrying my Santa Cruz OO on board in a gig
bag...probably a dozen times now. For my Collings OM, I use a Calton
and, so far, have been able to carry it on board as well. I just act
like it's the most natural thing in the world and walk right on with it.
I check my bags with the Sky Caps at passenger drop off. The agents at
the ticketing counter seem to be the worse about insisting you check
your guitar. The gate agents don't seem to have a problem with it and
the attendants on board don't either. Usually they ask if I'm going to
serenade them. It's clear they didn't hear me playing while I was
waiting for the flight to board.
John
From: Dan Carey <dcareySHORTS@cox...>
Subject: Re: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:01:02 -0400
Organization: Cox Communications
"Matt Hayden" <<matthayden@hotmail...>> wrote in message
news:<7302a7d8.0310191224.4ed6b4cc@posting...>...
> I travel a bunch, and usually take a Larrivee Parlour. Sometimes it
> goes in the hardshell case recommended by Wade, and sometimes a gig
> bag. It's always gotten onto the aircraft so far.
>
> However, I'm thinking about taking an OM on an upcoming trip and am
> wondering whether or not anyone has been able to get one onto an
> aircraft, either in a gig bag or (preferably) in a case. Anyone have
> any stories/strategies to share?
>
> Thanks
Well,
I've just returned from a business trip to Mexico and had no trouble fitting
a Strat in a gigbag into the overheads in coach class all the way. One of my
group carried an archtop. I know that my parlor, in it's hardshell case,
would have fit in the overhead with no problem. Oh,, BTW, I flew AA and was
in a 757 and an Embrair 170 for the trip.
A Mexican co-worker decided to stock up on some bargains here in the US and
couldn't carry them all back without huge duties to pay so he asked each of
us in the travel group to carry one.
I'll tell you, it was a hoot on the planes when the five of us boarded and
stowed the guitars.Passengers started asking if we were a band and yadda
yadda.
The couple sitting next to me asked me my name and then started treating me
like royalty. In about 15 minutes, I had three people ask me for my
autograph!
Man, were they disappointed when they realized my name is Dan Carey and NOT
Dan Crary!
Oh well, at least I had 15 minutes of fame......
Geezer Dan
--
Remove my "shorts" from the 'Reply To' address to reply
From: csj <chaya@san...>
Subject: Re: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: 19 Oct 2003 19:52:12 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com
If you have a gig bag with a strap that can sling over your shoulder,
it's the least noticible - especially if you are also wearing black.
In general the cabin attendants are real nice about it.
But you don't say which airline - some are more picky than others. I
wouldn't try it on a full Southwest flight on a Friday afternoon ...
csj
<matthayden@hotmail...> (Matt Hayden) wrote in message news:<<7302a7d8.0310191224.4ed6b4cc@posting...>>...
> I travel a bunch, and usually take a Larrivee Parlour. Sometimes it
> goes in the hardshell case recommended by Wade, and sometimes a gig
> bag. It's always gotten onto the aircraft so far.
>
> However, I'm thinking about taking an OM on an upcoming trip and am
> wondering whether or not anyone has been able to get one onto an
> aircraft, either in a gig bag or (preferably) in a case. Anyone have
> any stories/strategies to share?
>
> Thanks
>
> mh
From: Matt Hayden <matthayden@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: 19 Oct 2003 22:15:04 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com
<chaya@san...> (csj) wrote in message news:<<8f0efbd.0310191852.2724c328@posting...>>...
> If you have a gig bag with a strap that can sling over your shoulder,
> it's the least noticible - especially if you are also wearing black.
> In general the cabin attendants are real nice about it.
>
> But you don't say which airline - some are more picky than others. I
> wouldn't try it on a full Southwest flight on a Friday afternoon ...
>
> csj
>
Hi Susan,
I'm flying on United, midmorning Monday. I've decided to take the
parlour, althought I really want to take the OMC-15E. The OM would be
nice and would facilitate practice on some things tha need the 14th
fret neck, but I don't want to risk it winding up in the hold in only
a gig bag, and I really don't want to carry the Calton. Debating
whether or not to try the hardcase with the parlour -- it's pretty
light. Oddly, I've got beaucoup miles on United but I've not flown
with a guitar on that airline in a while -- last time, they denied the
parlour in a gigbag....
Thanks
mh
From: McCollum <mccollum@mccollumguitars...>
Subject: Re: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 06:06:19 GMT
Organization: http://www.randori.com
Matt,
Take the OM. Your biggest obstacle is getting to the gate. Like everybody
else has said, if you act like the guitar is joined to your hip and you do
this all the time, you're probably not going to have any problems. The
biggest problem I've had is actually getting the guitar past the security
checkpoint. And it depends on which airport you're going through when you
have to deal with that. And this is where you become the boss. You tell
them that you've done this many times before. You can stick it on the
scanner and run it backwards through the scanner to look at it. Get the
supervisor involved. Obviously you're going to be there well ahead of flight
time and what I always try to do is be within the first 30 people to board
the plane. Especially with Southwest. They pre board all the families with
babies and young children and those people seem to check everything that
they own and they always stick them in the front seats. So the second you
walk onto the plane. Turn to the right, look in the area over the childrens
heads, and you will most likely see an empty bin. Throwing a Calton case
into this bin will scare the crap out of the parents and the kids, so make
sure it doesn't fall on them :) But also, it saves you from having to walk
down that skinny ass aisle with a guitar case banging in front of you. Most
of the people boarding the plane will be excited that you are bringing a
guitar on board and will try to figure out who you are. It's only the
pretentious yuppies from the Bay Area that will give you the snarky looks
(oops, sorry, forgot you are from there! ;)
The key is looking and acting like you've done this a million times before.
"Matt Hayden" <<matthayden@hotmail...>> wrote in message
news:<7302a7d8.0310192115.36c04bc@posting...>...
> <chaya@san...> (csj) wrote in message
news:<<8f0efbd.0310191852.2724c328@posting...>>...
> > If you have a gig bag with a strap that can sling over your shoulder,
> > it's the least noticible - especially if you are also wearing black.
> > In general the cabin attendants are real nice about it.
> >
> > But you don't say which airline - some are more picky than others. I
> > wouldn't try it on a full Southwest flight on a Friday afternoon ...
> >
> > csj
> >
>
> Hi Susan,
>
> I'm flying on United, midmorning Monday. I've decided to take the
> parlour, althought I really want to take the OMC-15E. The OM would be
> nice and would facilitate practice on some things tha need the 14th
> fret neck, but I don't want to risk it winding up in the hold in only
> a gig bag, and I really don't want to carry the Calton. Debating
> whether or not to try the hardcase with the parlour -- it's pretty
> light. Oddly, I've got beaucoup miles on United but I've not flown
> with a guitar on that airline in a while -- last time, they denied the
> parlour in a gigbag....
>
> Thanks
>
> mh
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:39:28 GMT
Matt Hayden wrote:
> I'm flying on United, midmorning Monday. I've decided to take
> the parlour, althought I really want to take the OMC-15E. The
> OM would be nice and would facilitate practice on some things
> tha need the 14th fret neck, but I don't want to risk it winding up
> in the hold in only a gig bag, and I really don't want to carry the
> Calton. Debating whether or not to try the hardcase with the
> parlour -- it's pretty light. Oddly, I've got beaucoup miles on
> United but I've not flown with a guitar on that airline in a while --
> last time, they denied the parlour in a gigbag....
The frustrating thing is that it's so inconsistant...it's impossible to plan
for what might happen.
When I flew United to Texas about a year ago, I was carrying my Northworthy
in a Calton case and assumed I'd have to check it...they insisted that I
carry the guitar onboard ("Oh no...we don't want that going through luggage
check. Something might happen to it.") A few months ago, I flew US Air,
and they just didn't say anything.
Last summer, I flew United again, carrying a Tele in a gig bag, and had to
do some persuading to get it onboard. Go figure.
All in all, it's been several years since I was required to check an
instrument.
- Mike Pugh
From: Paul Pilch <ppilch@bu...>
Subject: Re: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:31:02 -0400
Organization: Boston University
Matt Hayden wrote:
> I travel a bunch, and usually take a Larrivee Parlour. Sometimes it
> goes in the hardshell case recommended by Wade, and sometimes a gig
> bag. It's always gotten onto the aircraft so far.
>
> However, I'm thinking about taking an OM on an upcoming trip and am
> wondering whether or not anyone has been able to get one onto an
> aircraft, either in a gig bag or (preferably) in a case. Anyone have
> any stories/strategies to share?
>
> Thanks
>
> mh
Matt,
I've traveled with my Lowden jumbo in its HC on ca. 6 flights each on
American and Delta. The planes were 757s, 767s and MD80s. On one
segment, I had to gate check it but otherwise, nobody said a word either
at the counter or at security. Taking everyone's stories into account, I
think the odds are very good that you will be able to carry it on in a
hard case, and gate checking is not that bad.
Paul
From: Terence Tan... <liwen.tan@imperial...>
Subject: Re: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: 20 Oct 2003 12:26:02 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Well, my take is there are 2 (and a half) ways of doing it;
1. Confidence way which is to say that you;ve done it many time before
and why this should be any different. Usually works best with security
people who tend to rely on prior precedent more than the ground crew.
2. Charm/innocent route which is to claim that it's your way of living
or act totally clueless and about to burst into tears. I prefer this
route, but then again, clean shaven I look like I'm 16. It usually
works on Singapore Airlines and Quantas, where they'll generally take
pity on you and have a chaperone walk you through the gates. Of
course, this worked about 4-5 years ago when I still had some
semblance of social skills and charm and failed miserably on previous
trip back to Singapore....
so I resorted to tactic 3 which isn't great. I generally just put my
foot down and ask for a written statement/declaration of why I
couldn't carry it on, along with the offending person's signature for
my insurance company. That's when they get jumpy and take you _real_
seriously. Of course, the supervisor tried to lecture me for being an
arrogant young whippersnapper, only to told that I'm a paying customer
and more than entitled to some sort of an official document which
propotions responsibility for my almost certain insurance claim.
Warmest Regards,
Terence
From: csj <chaya@san...>
Subject: Re: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: 21 Oct 2003 09:48:16 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com
the other thing to do on Southwest is to ask to be among the
preboarders. If you have to, make up an illness - they aren't going to
challenge you.
I speak from experience ...
csj
From: Russell Letson <rletson@cloudnet...>
Subject: Re: Largest guitar on an aircraft lately?
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 05:07:49 GMT
Organization: Onvoy
Fact part: Flew a Northwest 757 a few weeks back and was surprised to
find that my big, fat, thick dreadnaught-size FQMS Supercase (bigger
than my archtop hardshell) fit into the overhead with room to spare.
Was less surprised (but still grateful) that the flight crew were
accomodating--the head attendant on the way out took extra trouble to
find a spot in first class on a very full plane.
Opinion and advice part: I'd never risk using a gig bag--it's always a
crapshoot, and all it takes is one uncooperative person to banish your
guitar to the Regular Baggage System and its attendant gorillas. On
the outbound leg of the same trip last year, the same case was taken
from me at the aircraft door, declared "odd-size" and not-a-stroller
(thus not gate-checkable) and left unattended in the odd-size section
of the baggage pickup area at SeaTac. Coming home, the FA stowed it in
the first-class closet and called me "honey." Go figger. (Well, her
manner said "honey," anyhow.)
| Guitar travel and the TSA [18] |
|---|
From: JD <jdbnospam5025@yahoo...>
Subject: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 01:57:57 GMT
Am flying out from Seattle to Oxford, NC and Baltimore, MD over the holidays
and since none my family has any guitars worth touching, the Larrivee's
going with me. I can accept the worst case scenario of a gate check but are
those TSA dorks gonna freak when they see things like a Mixpro ("I don't
know BillyBob, it could be a detonator") or a tuner and (God forbid) an
electronic tuner and truss rod wrench? Will my guitar strings be
confiscated as possible garrotes? Am I in danger of getting arrested if I
lose it and tell the TSA dork to (ahem) bugger off when he asks me to take
off my shoes?
JD (Not looking forward to holiday travel)
From: Ed Edelenbos <eded@spameasy...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 21:19:48 -0500
JD, I'm not sure about the mixpro... as far as the tuner, cheap
electronic ones that would probably (maybe) get you through a week or
two are under $20. MusiciansFriend (same as GC) has about 20 listed
under $20. I wouldn't worry about the wrench. I guess it's the wrong
time of year to send them by mail a week before you leave. OTOH, I'd
bet they'd all pass through in checked baggage.
Last time my family flew, my wife was stopped... even with 3 kids (one
in her arms). She has metal inserts (prescribed by her doctor) in her
shoes. Quite the fiasco. I don't even look forward to non-holiday travel.
Ed
JD wrote:
> Am flying out from Seattle to Oxford, NC and Baltimore, MD over the holidays
> and since none my family has any guitars worth touching, the Larrivee's
> going with me. I can accept the worst case scenario of a gate check but are
> those TSA dorks gonna freak when they see things like a Mixpro ("I don't
> know BillyBob, it could be a detonator") or a tuner and (God forbid) an
> electronic tuner and truss rod wrench? Will my guitar strings be
> confiscated as possible garrotes? Am I in danger of getting arrested if I
> lose it and tell the TSA dork to (ahem) bugger off when he asks me to take
> off my shoes?
>
> JD (Not looking forward to holiday travel)
>
>
--
The SPAM got to me... change spam to speak in the return address.
From: Steve <sefstrat@aol...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: 30 Nov 2003 05:54:26 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
<<I can accept the worst case scenario of a gate check but are
those TSA dorks gonna freak when they see things like a Mixpro ("I don't
know BillyBob, it could be a detonator") or a tuner and (God forbid) an
electronic tuner and truss rod wrench? Will my guitar strings be
confiscated as possible garrotes?>>
I have flown post 9/11 with a Baby Taylor in a gig bag, carried onboard, with
an Intellitouch tuner, extra strings and a peg winder/bridge pin puller int he
pouch, without a problem.
I did take the trussrod wrench and the string cutting pliers and put them in a
checked-though bag, though.
SEFSTRAT
solo webpage: http://members.aol.com/sefstrat/index.html/sefpage.html
band webpage: www.timebanditsrock.com
From: Steve Hawkins <res0pf02@verizon...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 07:18:38 GMT
"JD" <<jdbnospam5025@yahoo...>> wrote in
news:F8cyb.31009$<ZV6.19095@nwrddc02...>:
> Am flying out from Seattle to Oxford, NC and Baltimore, MD over the
> holidays and since none my family has any guitars worth touching, the
> Larrivee's going with me. I can accept the worst case scenario of a
> gate check but are those TSA dorks gonna freak when they see things
> like a Mixpro ("I don't know BillyBob, it could be a detonator") or
> a tuner and (God forbid) an electronic tuner and truss rod wrench?
> Will my guitar strings be confiscated as possible garrotes? Am I in
> danger of getting arrested if I lose it and tell the TSA dork to
> (ahem) bugger off when he asks me to take off my shoes?
>
> JD (Not looking forward to holiday travel)
>
>
Jack, I flew to England last March with my guitar, truss rod tool, cable,
tuner, spare strings and a Raven Labs unit. They opened my guitar case in
my presence and checked both my carry-on and my duffle. The Raven was in
my duffle. There was no problem. Just answer their questions and don't
freak out. The TSA guy that looked at my guitar knew quite a bit about
them. And yes, if you give them lip you can expect to miss your flight.
Steve Hawkins
From: Steve Hawkins <res0pf02@verizon...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 07:28:54 GMT
Steve Hawkins <<res0pf02@verizon...>> wrote in
news:<Xns9442ED56D7BE4res0pf02verizonnet@199...>:
> "JD" <<jdbnospam5025@yahoo...>> wrote in
> news:F8cyb.31009$<ZV6.19095@nwrddc02...>:
>
>> Am flying out from Seattle to Oxford, NC and Baltimore, MD over the
>> holidays and since none my family has any guitars worth touching, the
>> Larrivee's going with me. I can accept the worst case scenario of a
>> gate check but are those TSA dorks gonna freak when they see things
>> like a Mixpro ("I don't know BillyBob, it could be a detonator") or
>> a tuner and (God forbid) an electronic tuner and truss rod wrench?
>> Will my guitar strings be confiscated as possible garrotes? Am I in
>> danger of getting arrested if I lose it and tell the TSA dork to
>> (ahem) bugger off when he asks me to take off my shoes?
>>
>> JD (Not looking forward to holiday travel)
>>
>>
>
> Jack, I flew to England last March with my guitar, truss rod tool,
> cable, tuner, spare strings and a Raven Labs unit. They opened my
> guitar case in my presence and checked both my carry-on and my duffle.
> The Raven was in my duffle. There was no problem. Just answer their
> questions and don't freak out. The TSA guy that looked at my guitar
> knew quite a bit about them. And yes, if you give them lip you can
> expect to miss your flight.
>
> Steve Hawkins
>
I also had wire cutters and a string winder in the case.
Steve Hawkins
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:28:32 GMT
> Am flying out from Seattle to Oxford, NC and Baltimore, MD
> over the holidays and since none my family has any guitars worth
> touching, the Larrivee's going with me. I can accept the worst
> case scenario of a gate check but are those TSA dorks gonna
> freak when they see things like a Mixpro ("I don't know BillyBob,
> it could be a detonator") or a tuner and (God forbid) an
> electronic tuner and truss rod wrench? Will my guitar strings be
> confiscated as possible garrotes?
No.
I've actually found the TSA people to be far more polite and reasonable than
the pre-9/11 crews. I've been pulled to the side for detailed searches a
couple of times, and it's just not a big deal...raise your arms and they
wave the wand around you.
The only guitar-related problem I've had has been the confiscation of string
clippers - it was my mistake for leaving them in the case, and they were
apologetic. Now, I put all stuff like that in checked baggage. They've
never questioned a tuner. I've not traveled with an outboard preamp, but I
can't imagine it would phase them.
Bottom line...make sure you get to the airport with plenty of time, and
relax. It's just not a big deal unless you choose to make it one.
BTW...since 9/11, the only time I've had to check a guitar was a couple of
weeks ago when I was on a very small jet and the case wouldn't fit in the
overhead bin. For that flight, I handed the instrument to a man on the
tarmac, and they handed it back at my destination. I had more issues with
carrying guitars on before 9/11.
> Am I in danger of getting arrested if I lose it and tell the TSA
> dork to (ahem) bugger off when he asks me to take off my
> shoes?
Possibly...I don't know if they'd arrest you (depends on what "lose it"
means), but you'd certainly miss your flight. It's a pretty simple
formula...do the dance, and you fly with no problem. Make trouble, and you
have trouble.
None of the folks at the airport set policy, so if you have a problem with
being searched for security purposes, it's probably a better idea to have
that discussion with someone a little further up the chain...on a day when
you're not flying.
Cheers,
Mike Pugh
From: Sheldon <sheldon@REMOVEsopris...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:46:56 GMT
Organization: Comcast Online
One would assume that if you put everything but the guitar in your checked
baggage you will have no problems, except for the fact you might lose your
luggage, or a baggage handler who plays guitar might steal the stuff.
Look, hunters going on vacation take guns with them, so as long as you don't
give the agent lip, or crack a joke that could be taken the wrong way, I
don't see a problem. Hey, they can search a lot more uncomfortable things
than your shoes, so watch what you say. :-)
"JD" <<jdbnospam5025@yahoo...>> wrote in message
news:F8cyb.31009$<ZV6.19095@nwrddc02...>...
> Am flying out from Seattle to Oxford, NC and Baltimore, MD over the
holidays
> and since none my family has any guitars worth touching, the Larrivee's
> going with me. I can accept the worst case scenario of a gate check but
are
> those TSA dorks gonna freak when they see things like a Mixpro ("I don't
> know BillyBob, it could be a detonator") or a tuner and (God forbid) an
> electronic tuner and truss rod wrench? Will my guitar strings be
> confiscated as possible garrotes? Am I in danger of getting arrested if I
> lose it and tell the TSA dork to (ahem) bugger off when he asks me to take
> off my shoes?
>
> JD (Not looking forward to holiday travel)
>
>
From: the anti-DADGAD <chaco@sandotrr...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:54:29 GMT
Organization: RoadRunner - West
Oh JD - take a video camera with you - I want documentation about the
last time you were out of jail ...
You don't have a Calton case? I know how much your Larrivee means to
you, but checking it is really the easiest thing.
If you are going to carry it on, first realize that traveling during
the holidays is *VERY* busy, which means full/oversold flights. With
the plane so crowded, they really check how much carry on stuff you
have - even if the guitar is your only piece, make sure that it will
fit in the overheads of the flights you are taking.
Next thing - the security people have *NO* sense of humor about this
stuff. For good reason.
We all know you can be charming when you want to be, so want to be ...
or bring the video camera.
csj
--
csj
From: JD <jdbnospam5025@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:04:14 GMT
"the anti-DADGAD" <<chaco@sandotrr...>> wrote in message
news:301120031255198102%<chaco@sandotrr...>...
> Oh JD - take a video camera with you - I want documentation about the
> last time you were out of jail ...
The last time I was in a jail was to deposit a miscreant into secure
surroundings.
>
> You don't have a Calton case? I know how much your Larrivee means to
> you, but checking it is really the easiest thing.
I have issues with Calton cases. For starters, anybody who steals guitars
knows enough to take the case that obviously has the expensive guitar in it.
A case made by Mosler or Diebold (known for bank vaults) won't protect your
guitar from missing it's connection and since getting a direct flight to RDU
or BWI from SEA just ain't happenin', I'll be pretty insistent on keeping ot
with me.
>
> If you are going to carry it on, first realize that traveling during
> the holidays is *VERY* busy, which means full/oversold flights. With
> the plane so crowded, they really check how much carry on stuff you
> have - even if the guitar is your only piece, make sure that it will
> fit in the overheads of the flights you are taking.
There are few planes that won't accomodate an OM case or a standard dred
case for that matter. In fact when I was working on the 777 interior
design/buld team they actually put a digital model of a TKL type dred case
into the digital preassembly to assure the fit.
>
> Next thing - the security people have *NO* sense of humor about this
> stuff. For good reason.
I know all about not having a sense of humor about some issues; I used to
date a ditzy blonde flight attendant when I was still spinning wrenches for
Piedmont Airlines and having her yell "Hi, Jack!" from the front door of the
plane when she saw me on the tarmac rattled a few folks.
>
> We all know you can be charming when you want to be, so want to be ...
I am not particularly fond of this time of year to start with (I'd be much
better off on some Australian beach ogling shielas and playing "Waltzing
Matilda") and my feelings for Bush/Ashcroft and this whole "Homeland
Security" crap rattles me to the point where I think it's about time for a
healthy dose of civil disobedience. This doesn't inspire a lot of charm.
> or bring the video camera.
I'll probably wind up biting my tongue and not being any too happy about it
but if I do lose it I'm sure it'll make "news at 11".
JD
From: Matt Hayden <matthayden@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: 30 Nov 2003 20:42:30 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
the anti-DADGAD <<chaco@sandotrr...>> wrote in message news:<301120031255198102%<chaco@sandotrr...>>...
> Oh JD - take a video camera with you - I want documentation about the
> last time you were out of jail ...
>
> You don't have a Calton case? I know how much your Larrivee means to
> you, but checking it is really the easiest thing.
>
> If you are going to carry it on, first realize that traveling during
> the holidays is *VERY* busy, which means full/oversold flights. With
> the plane so crowded, they really check how much carry on stuff you
> have - even if the guitar is your only piece, make sure that it will
> fit in the overheads of the flights you are taking.
>
> Next thing - the security people have *NO* sense of humor about this
> stuff. For good reason.
>
> We all know you can be charming when you want to be, so want to be ...
> or bring the video camera.
>
> csj
Susan,
Just FYI, cases checked through have to be unlocked. And Caltons are
theft-magnets. So an unlocked Calton ~= more likely to be stolen, not
less.
This is why I take my parlour when I travel. It's small enough to fit
in the overhead and not get checked, and I can usually gate-check it
when that's required. And while I like this guitar a lot, if it gets
trashed or stolen -- and we can surmise that both are likely, as
airline baggage handling is apparently about as secure as a playpen
given the theft volume -- the airline's baggage replacement policy
will pay for a new one.
If I absolutely, positively need a larger guitar at the other end of a
trip -- and that's happened quite rarely -- I'll ship the guitar and
insure it. The parlour works for 99% of the music I play, and if the
cutaway experiment works, it'll work for all of it.
mh
From: anti-DADGAD <chaya@sandotrr...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:37:51 GMT
Organization: RoadRunner - West
> Susan,
>
> Just FYI, cases checked through have to be unlocked. And Caltons are
> theft-magnets. So an unlocked Calton ~= more likely to be stolen, not
> less.
>
> This is why I take my parlour when I travel. It's small enough to fit
> in the overhead and not get checked, and I can usually gate-check it
> when that's required. And while I like this guitar a lot, if it gets
> trashed or stolen -- and we can surmise that both are likely, as
> airline baggage handling is apparently about as secure as a playpen
> given the theft volume -- the airline's baggage replacement policy
> will pay for a new one.
>
> If I absolutely, positively need a larger guitar at the other end of a
> trip -- and that's happened quite rarely -- I'll ship the guitar and
> insure it. The parlour works for 99% of the music I play, and if the
> cutaway experiment works, it'll work for all of it.
>
> mh
Matt -
I've traveled a lot with my McAlister in a Calton. So far, it's never
been stolen, and since the cases started having to be unlocked,
nothing's ever been lost from the inside (including the infamous $100
capo).
I understand your and JD's concerns, and I love my guitar and know it
to be unreplaceable. But ... I have the guitar so I can play it. If
something happens to it, I would be sad, but the world won't end.
What is the cutaway experiment? Are you going to turn your parlor into
a cutaway???
csj
From: No Busking <nobusking@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 12:15:14 GMT
Matt wrote:
> Just FYI, cases checked through have to be unlocked. And
> Caltons are theft-magnets. So an unlocked Calton ~= more
> likely to be stolen, not less.
The locks on Calton Cases (or pretty much any other production guitar case)
wouldn't prevent ANYthing from being stolen. A key to one matches all of
them...and if you look carefully, you'll find that most suitcase keys will
work as well.
The locks are more about securing the latch than preventing theft. If you
do lock it, the TSA folks will have NO trouble unlocking it. The best
advice I've heard is to cover the latches with packing tape, which keeps the
latches secure and can easily be unattached/reattached after inspection.
I can't recall any flights in the last 10 years or so where my luggage
reached baggage claim before I did. That's not to say theft isn't a
concern, but I wouldn't overstate the issue.
Generally, I don't travel with my better guitars. Sometimes it's necessary
to do so. I don't think guitars are any safer shipped by UPS or Fedex than
they are with an airline gate check...and it's a helluva lot less convenient
to ship them.
I have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles with guitars, and never had
one stolen or destroyed. I've met lots of folks whose instruments have been
destroyed by airlines (usually in standard hardshell cases, none in Caltons
that I know of). I've never met anyone who's guitar has been stolen at an
airport...despite hundreds of conversations with other guitarist travelers
prompted by my guitar case.
> If I absolutely, positively need a larger guitar at the other end of a
> trip -- and that's happened quite rarely -- I'll ship the guitar and
> insure it. The parlour works for 99% of the music I play, and if
> the cutaway experiment works, it'll work for all of it.
BTW...unless your Parlour is in an ATA case (like a Calton or Mark Leaf),
the airline is liable for theft, but not destruction.
- Mike Pugh
From: Rick Homan <rick_homan@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: 30 Nov 2003 18:54:13 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
In October, I flew round-trip Philadelphia to San Francisco on
USAirways, and round-trip Newark to San Francisco on Continental.
Carried my OM-21 in its thermoplastic case aboard and put it overhead.
No one even looked twice or asked a question -- neither TSA or flight
crew. It was my only carry-on, and I did put all the accessories in my
checked bag. The guitar went through the x-ray. That was it. Actually,
one flight attendant said, "Oh! Are you going to play for us?" I
smiled and said, "I will if you ask." Then she and another attendant
started swapping stories about having various pop stars on their
flights.
Be confident, respectful and friendly and you'll probably get the same
back. And I agree with the post which says the TSA people are a
definite upgrade over pre-9/11 security checkers.
Rick Homan
"JD" <<jdbnospam5025@yahoo...>> wrote in message news:<F8cyb.31009$<ZV6.19095@nwrddc02...>>...
> Am flying out from Seattle to Oxford, NC and Baltimore, MD over the holidays
From: Matt Hayden <matthayden@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: 30 Nov 2003 20:33:58 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
"JD" <<jdbnospam5025@yahoo...>> wrote in message news:<F8cyb.31009$<ZV6.19095@nwrddc02...>>...
> Am flying out from Seattle to Oxford, NC and Baltimore, MD over the holidays
> and since none my family has any guitars worth touching, the Larrivee's
> going with me. I can accept the worst case scenario of a gate check but are
> those TSA dorks gonna freak when they see things like a Mixpro ("I don't
> know BillyBob, it could be a detonator") or a tuner and (God forbid) an
> electronic tuner and truss rod wrench? Will my guitar strings be
> confiscated as possible garrotes? Am I in danger of getting arrested if I
> lose it and tell the TSA dork to (ahem) bugger off when he asks me to take
> off my shoes?
>
> JD (Not looking forward to holiday travel)
The Larrivee truss rod wrench sets 'em off.
I know this from painful experience; I wound up having to ship one
because they wouldn't allow it on. The audio gear generally gets
through, though. Strings usually get through as well, thankfully.
And yes, if you tell them to bugger off, you'll get busted, and it
won't be pretty, as it's a federal crime. I agree that the
removing-shoes mandate (as well as a host of others) is ridiculous,
but I'm not willing to go to jail to challenge it. I wear slip-on
shoes instead.
mh
From: G5832 <g5832@aol...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: 01 Dec 2003 09:14:11 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
I often fly with my Parlor. TSA & flight attendents are always very pleasant.
TSA always told me to just leave "any tools" out of the case I could board with
the guitar.
Randy
From: Wade Hampton Miller <hojo2x@aol...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: 03 Dec 2003 06:05:46 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
After worries were expressed about guitars in Calton cases somehow being
targeted for theft, Susan Jurist wrote:
>I've traveled a lot with my McAlister in a Calton. So far, it's never>been
stolen, and since the cases started having to be unlocked,
>nothing's ever been lost from the inside (including the infamous $100>capo).
Bingo.
Maybe some dishonest guitar aficionado would know enough to spot the Calton
case as a sign of expense and higher value, but I don't think most airport
guitar theft happens that way - I think it's a combination of impulse and
opportunity.
I go straight to the baggage carousel when I get off a flight, ALWAYS. No
dicking around, no delays longer than a quick visit to a bathroom if need be,
no hanging out and hoisting a few in the airport bar.
Liike Mike Pugh, I usually seem to beat my baggage to the carousel. And I've
traveled extensively with guitars in Caltons ever since 1985. Nobody in
airports ever seems to give them a second glance.
Wade Hampton Miller
Chugiak, Alaska
Remove the "Howdy" to reply...
From: Matt Hayden <matthayden@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: 2 Dec 2003 22:47:23 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
"No Busking" <<nobusking@yahoo...>> wrote in message news:<mn%yb.7506$<zL1.1287578@news1...>>...
> The locks on Calton Cases (or pretty much any other production guitar case)
> wouldn't prevent ANYthing from being stolen. A key to one matches all of
> them...and if you look carefully, you'll find that most suitcase keys will
> work as well.
Absolutely true. Which, in retrospect, I find vaguely disappointing --
but OTOH the case is really about protection rather than
theft-proofing.
> The locks are more about securing the latch than preventing theft. If you
> do lock it, the TSA folks will have NO trouble unlocking it. The best
> advice I've heard is to cover the latches with packing tape, which keeps the
> latches secure and can easily be unattached/reattached after inspection.
> I can't recall any flights in the last 10 years or so where my luggage
> reached baggage claim before I did. That's not to say theft isn't a
> concern, but I wouldn't overstate the issue.
I had the following happen twice, when I traveled a lot with an old
cheap instrument between JFK and SFO. I'd detune everything, pack the
headstock, etc.... When I got to the other end, the guitar would be
in some semblance of tune, and evidence of having been removed from
the case and played. That bothered me, to say the least. Obviously
someone had opened the case and fiddled with the instrument. In the
first case, I shrugged it off; the second time, I went to a baggage
supervisor and lodged a complaint.
W/R/T theft -- I'm not concerned about someone picking it off the
conveyor at baggage claim, I'm concerned about the baggage handlers
themselves. If something disappears behind the scenes, it's very
difficult to trace -- I've had to go through that process and it's
frustrating. Fortunately, newer baggage systems rely on bag scanners
that track each bag point to point, which tends to highlight where in
the process a bag didn't get checked in.
> Generally, I don't travel with my better guitars. Sometimes it's necessary
> to do so. I don't think guitars are any safer shipped by UPS or Fedex than
> they are with an airline gate check...and it's a helluva lot less convenient
> to ship them.
I think that's the correct solution. I don't travel with my good
ones, either, if there's any way to avoid it. IMHO, YMMV, shipping is
not a great alternative but IMHO it beats carrying a good instrument
through an airport and having to sweet-talk some ticket agent or TSA
person into letting it through security. The parlour is small enough
that I've seldom had to check it -- and it has sustained damage when
it was checked, unfortunately. But mostly it gets carried on, though
it's occasionally a game of chance whether or not it gets on the
aircraft.
> I have traveled hundreds of thousands of miles with guitars, and never had
> one stolen or destroyed. I've met lots of folks whose instruments have been
> destroyed by airlines (usually in standard hardshell cases, none in Caltons
> that I know of). I've never met anyone who's guitar has been stolen at an
> airport...despite hundreds of conversations with other guitarist travelers
> prompted by my guitar case.
My experience above made me cautious. That's all I'm getting at.
I've also flown a gajillion miles -- I'm well and truly some multiple
of 100k status on United, unfortunately -- and while much of the
service provided by airlines is indeed courteous and competent,
there's still plenty of room for other, less desirable kinds of
behavior. I've experienced far more of that than I like, with three
incidents involving instruments -- the two above, where someone was
tuning and playing the instrument in the back room, and one below,
where my Parlour took a beating at the hands of United.
> BTW...unless your Parlour is in an ATA case (like a Calton or Mark Leaf),
> the airline is liable for theft, but not destruction.
In theory, you're right. In practice, airlines will ante up if
adequately pressured. An airline managed to put a crack from the
endblock to the treble waist in my parlour while it was in the case.
The instrument had been gate-checked, too, which in theory reduces
risk. After a good many phone discussions and badgering and
continuing to higher-level supervisors, they paid for the cost of
repairs. On the same trip, they mangled my luggage -- by which I mean
that they brought the clothing/tools in my bag out in a plastic bag
along with the smooshed remains of the bag itself -- and they replaced
that bag as well (though I had to file a claim, etc, for that as
well).
I agree that perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic; these things have
happened a few times out of....well....LOTS of flight segments. But
most of the incidents shouldn't have happened at all and one of them
took far more work to resolve than it should have. I find it
infuriating that a service industry can get away with such a poor
level of customer service consistently. To say "if it's breakable,
we're not taking responsibility for how we handle it" says to me
"we'll take your money and you'll get the treatment you get, as long
as you don't make trouble." And, IMHO, that's just wrong.
</rant>
mh
From: John Youngblood <youngblood.j@nospam...>
Subject: Re: Guitar travel and the TSA
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 20:54:58 -0800
In article <SPJyb.9805$<n4.1463@nwrddc01...>>, JD
<<jdbnospam5025@yahoo...>> wrote:
> "G5832" <<g5832@aol...>> wrote in message
> news:<20031201041411.12288.00001025@mb-m25...>
> > I often fly with my Parlor. TSA & flight attendents are always very
> > pleasant. TSA always told me to just leave "any tools" out of the
> > case I could board with the guitar.
> >
> > Randy
>
> Probably good advice.
>
> JD
>
>
The cardboard box solution (checked in) is not glamorous buteffective. I kept the one that came with my SC OM. I always wonder
why there's so much consternation when that easy and cheap solution is
available.
If you're going to take it onboard, be sure and factor in the addedtravel tension given over to this manuever...
Youngblood
| skg flight case and holiday flight review (obscenely long) [3] |
|---|
From: mtmikey <mtmikey@hotmail...>
Subject: skg flight case and holiday flight review (obscenely long)
Date: 1 Dec 2003 09:55:05 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
wanted to post this as i've taken my skb ata "flight" case
(http://www.skbcases.com/product/musical_instrument/guitars/skb-18rw.html)
on quite a few trips now and have had some... results... and i've
developed a... strategy of sorts.
i got the skb just prior to july 4th 2003. i've flown with it
primarily out of washington dulles (iad), logan (bod) and portland
(pwm). so mostly east coast, mostly united. it's not the sturdiest of
the sturdy, but it is pretty stoutly built, and comes with a bit of
insurance:
"Any airline-related damage to an acoustic guitar being shipped in an
SKB-18RW case will be covered for up to $1,500.00 by SKB Corporation
in Orange, CA.
Acoustic guitar model must be a proper fit for the SKB-18RW case. SKB
repair claims will be processed after initial airline damage reports
have been filed and a qualified guitar repair technician submits a
written repair estimate. Repair claims will be issued only to original
case owner."
it only comes in a dreadnought size (at the moment, i was told a
smaller size might be on the way - probably sales/demand dependent).
it has two built-in wheels and a countersunk pull handle and is quite
easy to tote around as a result. it's reasonably light (17 lbs.). i
paid ~$180 for it from musiciansfriend.com.
my first flight with the case was a non-stop r.t. from iad to bos. as
nice as it is to be able to walk on a flight with a guitar and stow
it, a lot of the flights i take won't accomodate a case (bins too
small), and i can't bear the thought of showing up with a gig bag and
having to check it when someone decides i should... and then having a
guitar destroyed. so i've bitten the bullet and bought a case
specifically to check my instrument(s). i have a calton on the way,
fwiw - the skb is no calton - but the skb is/was a stopgap.
anyway, going from iad to bos the first time was no problem. the case
was hand-carried to the tsa, x-rayed and checked without incident. i
flew with the case locked (make a note of this). i immediately went to
baggage claim and picked it up at the rolling door (as opposed to the
regular belt with all of the other bags), opened it up, it was fine.
coming back that first time was different. if you weren't aware, the
tsa now screens all luggage checked onto flights. and they require
that you fly with bags unlocked. back in july i was vaguely aware of
this, but there wasn't a lot of signage to this effect flying out of
logan. so i checked the locked case (with my 1988 taylor 512 with
mcintyre dual-source, having padded out the case slightly with
closed-cell foam, which would probably void the warranty as the case
doesn't fit this guitar perfectly) and my bag at checkin, went to my
gate. about five minute before boarding my name came over the p.a. and
i was told i needed to go back to the tsa and "open my guitar case
*because it's locked*," the latest part of the phrase was delivered
with a fair amount of disdain.
anyway, i went back and the tsa guy was extraordinarily unhelpful... i
was told things were "all set." i shrugged and started to walk off,
then decided i wanted a little more info. essentially the guy tells me
he'd pried the case open (i wrote a bit more about this here if you're
interested: http://bansheewerks.com/frivolities/whinge/ins_07_17_03a.shtml,
but i'll spare you today). i was outraged, not to mentioned scared
about my guitar, figuring that the case was half-open and doomed...
but the guy repeatedly told me it was "all set," before proceeding to
get in my face, etc...
i picked up the case at iad, noted the tsa sticker on the lock, noted
that all of the locks were... locked... the guy was good, anyway. i
opened the case, everything was intact, including a tsa brochure
inside the guitar. i had loosened the strings and put a soundhole
humidifier in the guitar, which had popped through the strings and
was, presumably, banging around inside. this is probably not good...
anyway, it all worked out okay, and the case is still in good working
condition.
i've flown with the case numerous times since. i've also since bought
a guitar specifically for travel - a larrivee l-01, with which i've
been very happy, and which fits the case like a hand in a glove.
a few things i've done since that seem to have helped in my travels:
1. fragile stickers on the front and back of the case. if you don't
have them on the back, you are guaranteed that your case will go in
face-down.
2. i fly with the case locked, because i want to and because,
honestly, the latches won't stay reliably closed otherwise, especially
with the handling. but what i do now is i go to checkin, get the case
tagged, then i personally walk the case over to the tsa x-ray, explain
to them that the case won't stay shut unless it's locked, and that i
will wait for them to x-ray it, or i'll open it if they like. most
times they've put the case through x-ray immediately, i haven't had to
wait for all the other bags. last night the guy asked for the key,
opened the case, swabbed the inside, inspected things, locked it
again, carried it to the belt. basically no problem.
3. i've taken everything out of the interior of the case (humidifer,
string winder, tuner, spare batteries, etc.). i figure the less i have
in there the less likely it will be that anyone will want to open the
case in the first place. keep in mind that if you have a pickup
installed that has a battery in it... well, a battery and a bunch of
wires... it basically looks like a bomb. i'd take the battery out,
personally, as for whatever reason it could come loose and rattle
around inside your guitar.
4. put a little closed-cell foam in the headstock area of the case and
loosen the strings a bit.
additionally, i may experiment with gate-checking in the future. i
haven't as of yet, because i just haven't wanted to deal (with the
lines, the inspection, etc.). but it does avoid the points between the
checkin and the plane.
i've had various luck with where the case comes out. sometimes it's
been with the rest of the bags, sometimes it's gone by hand to the
odd-size door (with the skis and so forth).
as far as the case goes, it's held up well and i'm happy with the
investment. again, it's no calton, but it's done the job so far. if
you're looking for a little insurance for an instrument (less than
$1500?) with which you travel, i think it's a pretty good bet.
i didn't get in to the fine print of airline damage policies, tsa
policies, etc. i could sum it up basically as: you're screwed. you're
gonna sign a waiver when you check the thing. but, i think the case is
a good move.
best,
mike golay
http://www.bansheewerks.com
From: JOHNPEARSE <johnpearse@aol...>
Subject: Re: skg flight case and holiday flight review (obscenely long)
Date: 01 Dec 2003 20:33:43 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
I'm handicapped - progressive peripheral neuropathy - and so I have to be
trundled around airports in a wheelchair. (Nowadays I just can't run from gate
to gate as the buggers switch gates with only minutes to spare before the
bloody flight takes off.)
For all its disadvantages, I have found that having a disability is a positive
advantage when traveling with a guitar - as one gets to board the plane well in
advance of anyone else...giving one a choice of the best places in which to
stow the guitar - before the horde arrives!
One tip: if your seat is toward the back of the plane, don't drag the guitar
all the way back, hoping for a vacant overhead compartment. Grab the first
compartment you see as you work your way down the plane. (You'll have to pass
by it on your way out of the plane in any case - and the less people that see
you stumbling along with a guitar case, the less likely it is that some grumpy
flight attendant is going to insist that it has to go in with the luggage.
One thing I learned on a recent flight is that, on many planes, there is a
'secret compartment' - usually just behind the flight deck - which nobody
speaks about --- because it's where they put any passenger unlucky enough to
die on a flight, just to get them out of sight.
So...if you are told, point-blank, that your guitar just will not fit anywhere
on the plane...you might mention this compartment...and that it has to be at
least six feet long!
John Pearse.
From: mtmikey <mtmikey@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: skg flight case and holiday flight review (obscenely long)
Date: 1 Dec 2003 16:08:28 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
<mtmikey@hotmail...> (mtmikey) wrote in message news:<<6b6fafd3.0312010955.9292466@posting...>>...
well, i obviously meant SKB...
and logan is BOS.
please insert fork.
for i am done.
best,
mike golay
http://www.bansheewerks.com
| Flying with guitars - again [8] |
|---|
From: Mark Pluimer <bcbpres@aol...>
Subject: Flying with guitars - again
Date: 05 Dec 2003 01:54:47 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Just a note. I have traveled from time-to-time, primarily on Northwest, but
also on Delta and United, with guitars. Sometimes I take them in a gig bag,
sometimes in hard shell. TSA and others have been very receptive. I'm a elite
flyer so I get to board early and the guitars always fit in the overhead. So,
no problem.
Earlier this week, however, I headed off on a trip with my Goodall. Normally I
would not take a nice guitar, just in case, but I've had such great luck this
year. Well, I'm flying Delta and the agent at the gate on my very first flight
stopped me. She said she had read a recent batch of Delta notices and they
have a new policy that guitars will not be allowed as carry on luggage any
more, even if they fit in the overhead. She asked me to check my guitar. I
was very nice and pleaded for her mercy, pointing out that this was news to me,
and I had brought a $3,000 plus guitar that was not packed for checking.
Thankfully, she allowed me to carry the guitar on with a warning about next
time. On my connecting flight, not a word was said - of course, I had upgraded
to 1st Class on that flight.
Tomorrow I fly out again. I'm hoping to be able to make it home with at least
no more than gate checking. I am packing some clothing around the guitar and
trying to make it more secure. I have 4 more Delta flights before arriving
home.
I just wanted to forewarn anyone flying Delta, and also to ask if any other
Delta flyers have been stopped? I used to fly them all the time but have
stopped because of their change in FF programs and other nitpicking. This new
guitar policy means that, out of principle, I won't ever fly Delta again unless
I have no other option.
Northwest has been wonderful and I see quite a few folks on NW flying with
guitars.
Anyway, just thought I'd pass along that information and ask for comments from
others who may have heard anything.
Mark
"Music is a fair and glorious gift of God."
Martin Luther
From: Larry Pattis <LarryPattis@nospam...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars - again
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:22:10 -0800
Mark Pluimer <bcbpres@aol.com> wrote:> Just a note. I have traveled from time-to-time, primarily on Northwest, but
> also on Delta and United, with guitars. Sometimes I take them in a gig bag,
> sometimes in hard shell. TSA and others have been very receptive. I'm a
> elite flyer so I get to board early and the guitars always fit in the overhead. So,
> no problem.
>
> Earlier this week, however, I headed off on a trip with my Goodall. Normally
> I would not take a nice guitar, just in case, but I've had such great luck this
> year. Well, I'm flying Delta and the agent at the gate on my very first
> flight
> stopped me. She said she had read a recent batch of Delta notices and they
> have a new policy that guitars will not be allowed as carry on luggage any
> more, even if they fit in the overhead. She asked me to check my guitar. I
> was very nice and pleaded for her mercy, pointing out that this was news to
> me,
> and I had brought a $3,000 plus guitar that was not packed for checking.
> Thankfully, she allowed me to carry the guitar on with a warning about next
> time. On my connecting flight, not a word was said - of course, I had
> upgraded to 1st Class on that flight.
>
> Tomorrow I fly out again. I'm hoping to be able to make it home with at least
> no more than gate checking. I am packing some clothing around the guitar and
> trying to make it more secure. I have 4 more Delta flights before arriving
> home.
>
> I just wanted to forewarn anyone flying Delta, and also to ask if any other
> Delta flyers have been stopped? I used to fly them all the time but have
> stopped because of their change in FF programs and other nitpicking. This new
> guitar policy means that, out of principle, I won't ever fly Delta again
> unless I have no other option.
>
> Northwest has been wonderful and I see quite a few folks on NW flying with
> guitars.
>
> Anyway, just thought I'd pass along that information and ask for comments from
> others who may have heard anything.
>
> Mark
Mark,
The Delta gate agents at the Portland, OR airport are weael-dick
mother-f#%*#@rs.
...just to confirm that your recent problems were not just a one-time
thing.
I will be on a series of 6 different Delta flights later this month
(personal travel), starting in Portland, and I may not be taking a
guitar...for the first time in a looooong time.
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
Guitar Odyssey
http://www.LarryPattis.com
From: McCollum <mccollum@mccollumguitars...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars - again
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 02:47:38 GMT
Organization: http://www.randori.com
"Mark Pluimer" <<bcbpres@aol...>> wrote in message
news:<20031204205447.16038.00000102@mb-m22...>...
Go here and print this!
www.local1000.com/carryon.php?PHPSESSID=21ec18fbaa73d89b089744254e01c696
Lance
From: Mark Pluimer <bcbpres@aol...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars - again
Date: 05 Dec 2003 03:00:14 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lance,
The problem I had with Delta doesn't have anything to do with security
screening. I even pointed this TSA ruling out to the gate agent. However,
Delta is not required to allow everything on board their airlines that the TSA
allows through security. So, we all made a gain with the TSA, but we lost a
lot of ground with Delta Airlines. I hope they remain alone in the "musician
unfriendly" stand so that we can all avoid them and let them know their
policies are hurting business. They seem to turn it away at the same time they
are asking their pilots for a 30% cut in pay. Go figure!
Mark
>From: "McCollum" <mccollum@mccollumguitars...>
>
>
>Go here and print this!
>www.local1000.com/carryon.php?PHPSESSID=21ec18fbaa73d89b089744254e01c696
>
>Lance
>
>
>
>
From: Larry Pattis <LarryPattis@nospam...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars - again
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:02:05 -0800
In article <5lSzb.2748$<L6.517@news...>>, McCollum
<<mccollum@mccollumguitars...>> wrote:
> "Mark Pluimer" <<bcbpres@aol...>> wrote in message
> news:<20031204205447.16038.00000102@mb-m22...>...
>
> Go here and print this!
> www.local1000.com/carryon.php?PHPSESSID=21ec18fbaa73d89b089744254e01c696
>
> Lance
>
>
Lance,
I am terribly curious...do you know of anyone that had been hassled,
and then allowed to board with a guitar, having presented this
document?
Does that letter really carry any weight with gate agents?
--
Larry Pattis
LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
Guitar Odyssey
http://www.LarryPattis.com
From: Deb Cowan <dcowan@debracowan...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars - again
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:27:57 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Hey all,
It seems that when it comes to airlines and guitars, Delta is Satan and
American is...well...nice to guitarists. Before buying the Calton, I
took my chances with My poll is not scientific by any means, just what I
have heard over the years in this "flying with guitars" discussion that
comes up alot on every discussion list I read. Larry Pattis wrote:
> I am terribly curious...do you know of anyone that had been hassled,
> and then allowed to board with a guitar, having presented this
> document?
>
> Does that letter really carry any weight with gate agents?
Joel Mabus very eloquently (more eloquently than I could ever be) had
this to say recently on the Folk Alliance discussion list:
"The "letter" is a security issue, and nothing more. It is a policy
statement for the TSA that taking an instrument is no longer a security
issue. Each airline can determine what goes in the cabin as a space or
safety issue. Fiddles, trumpets, ukuleles, etc. don't take up the kind
of space that a guitar does. Again, you can always have the guitar go
underneath as an oversized carry-on, and you can maybe take it on board,
but if the airline says it has to be stowed due to perceived space
limitations, they can make you do it, letter or not. So think about how
thick the padding in that gig bag needs to be.
What if everybody has a guitar to take on? This actually can become
a reality on Folk Alliance-bound flights. I remember changing planes in
Minneapolis flying to Albuquerque for the FA, and standing at the gate
with about 20 guitars wanting to go on -- many of them in flimsy gig
bags. The flight was full and the word went out that there was no room
in the overheads for guitars. All of them had to go in the hold except
one -- and that was Pat Donohue's who was flying first class (all those
PHC frequent flyer miles). I was glad my guitar was in its Calton in
the belly of the plane that day, and not a gig bag in a pile."
Anyway, I have a Calton and heavy that it is, I check my guitar. My only
anxiety is that it may not show up at the airport on the arrival side
when I do.
Debra
--
******************************
USA Booking and information:(508) 662-9746
Email: <dcowan@DebraCowan...>
website: http://www.DebraCowan.com
snail mail: PO Box 1335, Westborough, MA 01581-6335
******************************
UK Booking and Information:
Vivienne Bloomfield - the Other Agency
email: <vivienne@jvmb...>
Tel: 0044(0)1908 542894 Mob: 07770 977891
www.otheragency.co.uk
******************************
Debra Cowan is listed on the rosters of:
Falling Mountain Music- http://www.FallingMountain.com
Massachusetts Cultural Council- http://www.massculturalcouncil.org
New England Foundation For the Arts- http://www.nefa.org/
******************************
To stay alive, folksong must be alive"
-Peter Kennedy, song collector and editor of "Folksongs of Britain and
Ireland"
******************************
From: Peter Huggins <guitarmaniax@webtv...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars - again
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:29:57 -0800 (PST)
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
I was hanging out in California Vintage Guitar and amp one Saturday a
couple of months ago, and in walked Mr. and Mrs. Lawrence Juber, they
wanted a Martin box to ship a damaged LJ signature model Martin back to
the factory in.
It turned out the guitar was damaged while being carried by their
daughter, on a solo flight without her parents. She had a copy of the
TSA letter from the Union, but the gate check would have none of it, and
intimidated the poor girl into letting the guitar be hand checked into
the hold , where it received a severe enough blow to crack the heel,
neck block and both sides. Moral: NEVER fly America West !
Grins, Peter
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/THISISTHE
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/unfinished3
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/KAYDELUXEELTROVADOR
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/PhotoReserveNo1
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/MYFRIEND
From: Matt Hayden <matthayden@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Flying with guitars - again
Date: 5 Dec 2003 16:39:50 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
<guitarmaniax@webtv...> (Peter Huggins) wrote in message news:<<7964-3FD05015-1@storefull-2295...>>...
> I was hanging out in California Vintage Guitar and amp one Saturday a
> couple of months ago, and in walked Mr. and Mrs. Lawrence Juber, they
> wanted a Martin box to ship a damaged LJ signature model Martin back to
> the factory in.
>
> It turned out the guitar was damaged while being carried by their
> daughter, on a solo flight without her parents. She had a copy of the
> TSA letter from the Union, but the gate check would have none of it, and
> intimidated the poor girl into letting the guitar be hand checked into
> the hold , where it received a severe enough blow to crack the heel,
> neck block and both sides. Moral: NEVER fly America West !
>
> Grins, Peter
Airlines are one of the industries that relentlessly abuse their
clientele and belongings and get away with it -- note the gutless,
useless "passenger's bill of rights" that Congress debated this year.
If one airline acted better than its siblings and enacted good
customer service and comfortable seating as a matter of policy, I'd
pretty much always pay the higher fares that would entail.
mh
| RMMGA/Delta letter campaign? [2] |
|---|
From: Sheldon <sheldon@REMOVEsopris...>
Subject: Re: RMMGA/Delta letter campaign?
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 00:16:36 GMT
Organization: Comcast Online
Template and form letters get little respect. They read the first and toss
the rest. And I still think you are missing the point. It's not a security
issue. It's a space issue. As long as there is room "under" the plane, they
don't have to let you carry it on. If the plane is full, the odds you're
going to be able to carry anything on that large and bulky is slim to none.
I think a lot of you are just damn lucky.
"Larry Pattis" <<LarryPattis@nospam...>> wrote in message
news:051220030843302059%<LarryPattis@nospam...>...
> In article <<20031205091317.08176.00000154@mb-m16...>>, Mitch
> <<mkarlo@aol...>> wrote:
>
> > >In article <<20031204222610.12363.00000184@mb-m05...>>, Mitch
> > ><<mkarlo@aol...>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Ya know, there are a lot of folks on this NG. Enough to get some
attention
> > >if
> > >> almost every one of us called an airline to confront them on this
policy.
> > >If
> > >> someone can track down the number, what say ye?
> > >>
> > >> Mitch
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >IMO Delta would be the one to call.
> > >
> > >How about a letter-writing campaign? Letters mean more than phone
> > >calls or email to these folks....
> > >
> > >--
> > >Larry Pattis
> >
> > I'm game. With a group like this we could hit 'em with letters and
calls from
> > all over the globe. It would get my company's attention. In a hurry.
> >
> > I have a liason at American that handles just these kind of matters via
> > correspondence for them. I give her a buzz and ask her how to proceed.
> >
> > Mitch
> >
>
>
>
> Micth,
>
> I don't know that it would mean anything, but perhaps a letter-writing
> campaign might actually do something.
>
> Of course, most folks won't get off their butts to write a letter, but
> I'm game.
>
> If your friend can get us a good mailing address for someone of
> responsibility at Delta I will seek out every guitar forum on the 'net
> and ask folks to dash off a letter....and maybe we could create a
> template-letter, or something to make it a little easier for folks to
> do.
>
> Do the lazy ass lard butts here agree, or are Mitch and I just spinnin'
> our wheels?
>
> Mitch, I'm emailing you, so please add my address to your email filter
> at AOL, if you reject stuff on a routine basis.
>
> --
> Larry Pattis
> LP "at" LarryPattis "dot" com
> Guitar Odyssey
> http://www.LarryPattis.com
From: Jay Adair <jabs@peoplepc...>
Subject: Re: RMMGA/Delta letter campaign?
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 08:02:37 -0600
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
You guys have approached it all wrong. I married a Delta flight attendant.
I ALWAYS get my guitar on. But she (or another flight attendant friend)
takes it onboard before passenger boarding. Of course, this has only
happened a few times when buying guitars....they never leave my house
afterwards....
Jay
| Air travel with guitar [6] |
|---|
From: JD Blackwell <jdb5025@yahoo...>
Subject: Air travel with guitar
Date: 27 Dec 2003 03:09:11 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Three cities , six different flights, no problems. Got the Millenium
OM aboard all flights with no grief whatsoever. Case fits in the
overhead of 757, 737 and MD80. Will be seeing Jim Carpenter and,
hopefully, a large contingent other rmmga'ers Sunday afternoon.
Feliz Navidad
JD
From: Michael <please_do_not_reply@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Air travel with guitar
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:33:31 +0100
Organization: Wanadoo, l'internet avec France Telecom
> Three cities , six different flights, no problems. Got the Millenium
> OM aboard all flights with no grief whatsoever. Case fits in the
> overhead of 757, 737 and MD80. Will be seeing Jim Carpenter and,
> hopefully, a large contingent other rmmga'ers Sunday afternoon.
Same for me. On a small Regional Jet they were putting gate check tags on
everyones bags, and I mean everyone's. So I let them put it on my guitar,
which was in a padded gig bag (I know I know..). Well I hand it to the
woman taking the gate check baggage and she says "Let's see if there is room
for this on the plane." I told her how much I appreciated that. She found a
spot in a little closet. That was so nice of her.
For me I took it on 3 flights total, including a flight from Chicago back
home to Paris (it barely fit in the overhead bin). For that flight I was in
the first row in coach, which is in the last boarding group. I boarded with
the first coach group and they didn't say a word. That enabled me to get
the bin right above my seat which was empty.
I live in France and guitars are much cheaper in the US, so it's great this
worked out. If I ever buy another guitar, I'll probably do it while on
vacation in the US and bring it back on the plane..
-michael
From: Pjkesq <pjkesq@aol...>
Subject: Re: Air travel with guitar
Date: 01 Jan 2004 14:51:05 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
I recently went to Jorma Kaukonen's Fur Peace Ranch. During the course of the
year I had purchased a Calton Case so I would not have to ship my guitar ahead
when I flew. I absolutely refused to take my guitar on the plane. When I got to
the gate, I decided what the hell, instead of gate checking the guitar, I will
ask the flight attendant if she would put it in an upright closet on the plane.
It was a 50 seat jet and the Calton case will NOT fit in an overhead bin. The
fantastic flight attendant said, I will do you one better, it is not a full
flight and I will give your guitar its own seat!!! She proceeded to get a seat
belt extension and put the guitar in the seat directly behind me. To my
amazement, this occurred again on the flight home. So much for my investment in
a calton case ;-)
PJK
From: Sleepy Fingers Jones <persistent_offender@NOSPAM...>
Subject: Re: Air travel with guitar
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 23:45:22 +0000
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:49:49 -0800, "JoeT"
<<jetcode.nospamthankyou@allvantage...>> wrote:
>I've never had a problem flying with a guitar ... done it many times and the
>guitar ends up in the coat closet 90% of the time ... the last time it
>didn't was on a nashville flight and it was waiting for me at the end of the
>stairway with a airline employee guarding it ...
That's happened to me too. Must be something to do with flying into
Nashville with a guitar...they don't know who you are, but if you're
toting a guitar, they'll look after you..:-)
Pete
From: Steve Fisher <fisheng@telusplanet...>
Subject: Re: Air travel with guitar
Date: 1 Jan 2004 13:45:47 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
I just returned from a week down south and took my Martin OM in its
Calton case with me. Two flights each way and at least a couple
malevolent ground crews. The case got a few scratches which I don't
care about. Inside everything was fine though I was surprised to see
that the case had been jarred so forcefully on the way down that the
back of the tuner popped off and the battery was thrown out. On the
way home I found the 9 volt battery that powers the I-Beam pickup
rolling around the inside of the guitar at the end of its wires with
one of the connections loose. Normally it is contained in a small
cloth case attached to the heel block and closed with a velcro flap.
The mind boggles at how hard you would have to throw the case to get
that to happen.
My guitar is insured and I have a lot of faith in the Calton. I
wouldn't travel with a good guitar any other way. Though I would like
to bring it on board in a gig bag, I always assume the baggage
restrictions at the check in gate mean what they say and the length of
the guitar is way past the maximum length of a carry on bag. I also
don't want to find myself in the position of getting ready to board
only to find that the guitar has to be checked with only a gig bag for
protection.
I'm also curious about the use of the overhead compartment for
guitars. On all the flights I've taken in the past few years there
are no spare seats and everybody seems to be carrying as much stuff on
board as they possibly can. I often have trouble finding a place for
a small day dack or shoulder bag above the seat I've been assigned.
In this kind of environment even if I got the guitar up there, a gig
bag would hardly protect against the 30 lb. carry-ons I see people
(and occasionally myself) hulking on board the plane.
Getting your guitar strapped into the seat beside you is the
equivalent of winning the lottery in my experience.
Steve Fisher
From: <please@nospam...>
Subject: Re: Air travel with guitar
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 21:55:19 GMT
Organization: None
<fisheng@telusplanet...> (Steve Fisher) wrote:
>On the
>way home I found the 9 volt battery that powers the I-Beam pickup
>rolling around the inside of the guitar at the end of its wires with
>one of the connections loose.
Wow, Steve, you got lucky on that one. I always remove the
battery before travel (or shipping) and I never leave loose
objects in the string compartment. For example, I always put
keys and tools in a manila envelope that's folded over so the
objects can't work their way out of the string compartment.
Calton cases are good for things happening on the outside of the
case but you can still be undermined by stuff rattling around on
the inside.
Al Sato
--
Reply to al_guitar "at" clifftopmusic "dot" com
| Bending airline rules [19] |
|---|
From: John Rethorst <ilove@spam...>
Subject: Bending airline rules
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 02:55:29 GMT
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Lots of posts have discussed ways to carry a guitar onto an airplane,
rather than trust baggage handling. This article discusses ways travellers
get airlines to bend rules.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/24/business/24bend.html?pagewanted=print&position=
February 24, 2004
BUSINESS TRAVEL
Flattery and Other Ways to Bend Rules
By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
As far as Wendy Shear is concerned, airline rules are meant to be bent, if
not broken.
Ms. Shear, a documentary filmmaker who lives in Los Angeles, routinely
checks in luggage that weighs more than her free allowance. She waits for
her flights in the United Airlines Red Carpet Club, drinking free bottled
water, even though she is not a club member. "And I can't remember the
last time I sat in economy class," she said.
Like a growing number of business travelers, Ms. Shear believes that for
every new rule or restriction that the airlines devise, there is a way
around it.
A $100 change fee on a nonrefundable ticket? Try the first-class lounge,
where the attentive staff is reluctant to use the word "no." Excess
luggage fee? A low-key conversation about the travails of life on the road
is sometimes enough to make an overworked ticket agent look the other way.
No room in first class? Once they are placed on a waiting list for an
upgrade, Ms. Shear and other business travelers are finding other ways to
work their way to the front of the cabin.
"If you want to get around the rules, being a frequent flier isn't enough
anymore," said Joel L. Widzer, author of "The Penny Pincher's Passport to
Luxury Travel" (Travelers' Tales Guides, 2004). In a recent poll of elite
travelers, he found that waving the frequent-flier card - a long-favored
tactic when a business traveler hits a roadblock with an airline - is
losing some of its effectiveness. Replacing it is a new, more complex
strategy that can involve arguing, appealing a request to a supervisor,
begging and sometimes laying on the flattery.
Consider Ms. Shear, who is not an elite-level frequent flier on United.
"It doesn't matter if you're a triple-plutonium-mile member," she argued.
"A sense of entitlement, aggression or just plain rude behavior will get
you nowhere. A smile, 'please' and 'thank you,' on the other hand, are a
good beginning."
Instead of writing to complain about poor service, her letters to the
airline point out positive experiences: A crew member that makes a special
effort to deliver good customer service, or a memorable flight. Maybe that
is one reason, even though Ms. Shear invariably starts off at the bottom
of an upgrade waiting list, she often leapfrogs over other travelers with
a higher status to claim a choice seat.
"It's to the point where if it looks as if they might not have room for me
in first class, the ticket agents start apologizing," she said.
Business travelers have been trying to bend the rules since there have
been rules to bend, of course. But lately, it seems, there have been a lot
more regulations to try to get around. Two years ago, airlines became more
diligent about charging change fees for nonrefundable tickets. They also
clamped down on overweight luggage, adding excess fees for overweight
bags. The new policy was often referred to as "no waivers, no favors."
It turned out the carriers were just warming up. In recent months, they
have trimmed their frequent-flier programs, making it more difficult to
qualify for elite status. They have cut everything from free meals to the
amount of legroom in coach class.
How are business travelers coping? Sandy Robinson, an accountant from
Goodlettsville, Tenn., says a combination of mileage status, sound logic
and above all, politeness can land her a first-class seat, a lounge pass
or a free ticket change.
In extreme cases, buttering up a weary service provider can work wonders.
Ms. Robinson recently tried to change the date and time on a ticket at an
airport ticket counter. It happened to be Mother's Day, and her hotel had
given her a two-rose corsage.
"When I asked the female airline employee if she missed being with her
children on Mother's Day because she had to work, she looked very sad,"
she said. "I took off my corsage and told her she should wear it."
The ticket agent made the change and posted it as an airline error in the
reservations system, saving her $100 in change fees.
"Sometimes a small amount of flattery or small talk, a look of extreme
exhaustion and a sincere thank you, do the trick," she said. "If all else
fails, I do remind them how much money I spend with their carrier and how
many points I've never had the time to use."
Carver Farrow, a managing partner for a law firm in San Jose, Calif., grew
so weary of being told no when he traveled that he began looking for
employees who would give him another answer. He found them in the airport
lounge.
"The staff members are trained to be more accommodating, since they
generally deal with elite-level travelers," he said. That may not be the
only reason the clubs are a way around the rules.
At American Airlines, for instance, the Admirals Club staff reports to a
vice president for sales, whose views about making customers happy are
likely to differ from those of the manager in charge of reservations.
An American Airlines spokesman, Tim Wagner, acknowledged that club members
did receive special treatment, which can include having fees and rules
waived. "These are our most loyal customers, so we go out of our way to
make them happy," he said.
Richard Kraus, a consultant from Annandale, Va., remembers a Thanksgiving
Day flight with his family, where a helpful Admirals Club agent rebooked
them on an earlier flight so they could make it home in time for dinner.
It did not cost them a dime.
Sometimes, an impassioned plea to waive the rules also does the trick.
That was the experience of Colleen Hughes, a public health consultant from
Sparks, Nev., who recently missed a flight from Orlando, to Reno, Nev.,
with a connection in Nashville. She wanted to buy lunch before the long
flight, and ended up cutting it too close.
"I panicked," she remembered. Her airline, Southwest, could have forced
her to buy a new ticket, but instead it rerouted her on another flight
through Phoenix at no charge. "The agent simply bent the rules for me,"
she said.
Not everyone approves of all the tactics business travelers use to get
special treatment.
Matthew Bennett, the editor of a newsletter for elite travelers and the
Web site FirstClassFlyer.com, said in airline circles that these
rule-benders were commonly called finaglers. He believed that their
efforts hurt business travelers as a group more often than it helped them.
Airlines frown on many of the strategies, including practices like making
a series of dummy reservations in the first-class cabin and then canceling
them in the hopes of securing a standby upgrade.
"When you have this group of frequent travelers trying to get around the
rules," he wondered, "where does that leave the ones who play by the
rules?"
Readers are invited to send stories about business travel experiences to
<businesstravel@nytimes...>
--
John Rethorst
jrethorst -at- post -dot- com
From: Terence <troisnois@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:45:37 -0000
Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie
I usually check everything else in and gang with a couple of other
guitarists at the gate.
Usually I try to sweet talk them and plead a bit but if someone isn't
listening to logic or an SRA letter, then I...
1. ask for the persons name and get them to fill out a declaration for my
insurance company about why I couldn't carry-on. Includes flight details,
company name etc.
then I may change my mind and
2. turn stubborn and refuse to board without my guitar. Insist on talking
to the supervisor and explain the situation to them calmly and try
reasoning and charming again. If not, then absolutely refuse to baord
without the guitar. That means that they _have_ to unload the luggage and
rummage around for my 3-4 small non-descript bags to take away if I'm not
boarding.
Queue a couple of other guitarists doing the same thing or a couple of
people (usually friends) grumbling and complaining 'hey it's only a
guitar...' and that usually does the trick.
But I _always_ try to reason and charm them first.. this usually works 80%
of the time, but if someone is particularly nasty, then it's a no holds
barred exercise in causing them grief and waste the airline's time and
money....
--
Warmest Regards,
Terence
www.goodacoustics.com
www.goodacoustics.co.uk
"Harry J" <<nospam@harryj...>> wrote in message
news:<K7udnTXrI-9A8aLdRVn-vg@comcast...>...
>
> "John Rethorst" <<ilove@spam...>> wrote in message
> news:<ilove-2602041855270001@01-033...>...
> > Lots of posts have discussed ways to carry a guitar onto an airplane,
> > rather than trust baggage handling. This article discusses ways
travellers
> > get airlines to bend rules.
> >
> >
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/24/business/24bend.html?pagewanted=print&posi
tion=
> >
> > February 24, 2004
> > BUSINESS TRAVEL
> > Flattery and Other Ways to Bend Rules
> > By CHRISTOPHER ELLIOTT
> >
> > As far as Wendy Shear is concerned, airline rules are meant to be bent,
if
> > not broken.
> >
> > Ms. Shear, a documentary filmmaker who lives in Los Angeles, routinely
> > checks in luggage that weighs more than her free allowance. She waits
for
> > her flights in the United Airlines Red Carpet Club, drinking free
bottled
> > water, even though she is not a club member. "And I can't remember the
> > last time I sat in economy class," she said.
> >
> > Like a growing number of business travelers, Ms. Shear believes that for
> > every new rule or restriction that the airlines devise, there is a way
> > around it.
> >
> > A $100 change fee on a nonrefundable ticket? Try the first-class lounge,
> > where the attentive staff is reluctant to use the word "no." Excess
> > luggage fee? A low-key conversation about the travails of life on the
road
> > is sometimes enough to make an overworked ticket agent look the other
way.
> > No room in first class? Once they are placed on a waiting list for an
> > upgrade, Ms. Shear and other business travelers are finding other ways
to
> > work their way to the front of the cabin.
> >
> > "If you want to get around the rules, being a frequent flier isn't
enough
> > anymore," said Joel L. Widzer, author of "The Penny Pincher's Passport
to
> > Luxury Travel" (Travelers' Tales Guides, 2004). In a recent poll of
elite
> > travelers, he found that waving the frequent-flier card - a long-favored
> > tactic when a business traveler hits a roadblock with an airline - is
> > losing some of its effectiveness. Replacing it is a new, more complex
> > strategy that can involve arguing, appealing a request to a supervisor,
> > begging and sometimes laying on the flattery.
> >
> > Consider Ms. Shear, who is not an elite-level frequent flier on United.
> > "It doesn't matter if you're a triple-plutonium-mile member," she
argued.
> > "A sense of entitlement, aggression or just plain rude behavior will get
> > you nowhere. A smile, 'please' and 'thank you,' on the other hand, are a
> > good beginning."
> >
> > Instead of writing to complain about poor service, her letters to the
> > airline point out positive experiences: A crew member that makes a
special
> > effort to deliver good customer service, or a memorable flight. Maybe
that
> > is one reason, even though Ms. Shear invariably starts off at the bottom
> > of an upgrade waiting list, she often leapfrogs over other travelers
with
> > a higher status to claim a choice seat.
> >
> > "It's to the point where if it looks as if they might not have room for
me
> > in first class, the ticket agents start apologizing," she said.
> >
> > Business travelers have been trying to bend the rules since there have
> > been rules to bend, of course. But lately, it seems, there have been a
lot
> > more regulations to try to get around. Two years ago, airlines became
more
> > diligent about charging change fees for nonrefundable tickets. They also
> > clamped down on overweight luggage, adding excess fees for overweight
> > bags. The new policy was often referred to as "no waivers, no favors."
> >
> > It turned out the carriers were just warming up. In recent months, they
> > have trimmed their frequent-flier programs, making it more difficult to
> > qualify for elite status. They have cut everything from free meals to
the
> > amount of legroom in coach class.
> >
> > How are business travelers coping? Sandy Robinson, an accountant from
> > Goodlettsville, Tenn., says a combination of mileage status, sound logic
> > and above all, politeness can land her a first-class seat, a lounge pass
> > or a free ticket change.
> >
> > In extreme cases, buttering up a weary service provider can work
wonders.
> > Ms. Robinson recently tried to change the date and time on a ticket at
an
> > airport ticket counter. It happened to be Mother's Day, and her hotel
had
> > given her a two-rose corsage.
> >
> > "When I asked the female airline employee if she missed being with her
> > children on Mother's Day because she had to work, she looked very sad,"
> > she said. "I took off my corsage and told her she should wear it."
> >
> > The ticket agent made the change and posted it as an airline error in
the
> > reservations system, saving her $100 in change fees.
> >
> > "Sometimes a small amount of flattery or small talk, a look of extreme
> > exhaustion and a sincere thank you, do the trick," she said. "If all
else
> > fails, I do remind them how much money I spend with their carrier and
how
> > many points I've never had the time to use."
> >
> > Carver Farrow, a managing partner for a law firm in San Jose, Calif.,
grew
> > so weary of being told no when he traveled that he began looking for
> > employees who would give him another answer. He found them in the
airport
> > lounge.
> >
> > "The staff members are trained to be more accommodating, since they
> > generally deal with elite-level travelers," he said. That may not be the
> > only reason the clubs are a way around the rules.
> >
> > At American Airlines, for instance, the Admirals Club staff reports to a
> > vice president for sales, whose views about making customers happy are
> > likely to differ from those of the manager in charge of reservations.
> >
> > An American Airlines spokesman, Tim Wagner, acknowledged that club
members
> > did receive special treatment, which can include having fees and rules
> > waived. "These are our most loyal customers, so we go out of our way to
> > make them happy," he said.
> >
> > Richard Kraus, a consultant from Annandale, Va., remembers a
Thanksgiving
> > Day flight with his family, where a helpful Admirals Club agent rebooked
> > them on an earlier flight so they could make it home in time for dinner.
> > It did not cost them a dime.
> >
> > Sometimes, an impassioned plea to waive the rules also does the trick.
> > That was the experience of Colleen Hughes, a public health consultant
from
> > Sparks, Nev., who recently missed a flight from Orlando, to Reno, Nev.,
> > with a connection in Nashville. She wanted to buy lunch before the long
> > flight, and ended up cutting it too close.
> >
> > "I panicked," she remembered. Her airline, Southwest, could have forced
> > her to buy a new ticket, but instead it rerouted her on another flight
> > through Phoenix at no charge. "The agent simply bent the rules for me,"
> > she said.
> >
> > Not everyone approves of all the tactics business travelers use to get
> > special treatment.
> >
> > Matthew Bennett, the editor of a newsletter for elite travelers and the
> > Web site FirstClassFlyer.com, said in airline circles that these
> > rule-benders were commonly called finaglers. He believed that their
> > efforts hurt business travelers as a group more often than it helped
them.
> >
> > Airlines frown on many of the strategies, including practices like
making
> > a series of dummy reservations in the first-class cabin and then
canceling
> > them in the hopes of securing a standby upgrade.
> >
> > "When you have this group of frequent travelers trying to get around the
> > rules," he wondered, "where does that leave the ones who play by the
> > rules?"
> >
> > Readers are invited to send stories about business travel experiences to
> > <businesstravel@nytimes...>
> >
> > --
> > John Rethorst
> >
> > jrethorst -at- post -dot- com
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> I have been doing a bit of international touring and have yet to have a
> major problem.
>
> I leave my flight case at home, take the strat sized gig bag on board.
>
> Be aware that the Boing 777 has tiny overhead racks, but they always take
> the guitar in their closet.
>
> There are 3 things you can try if you encounter a problem.
> I had to use this twice
>
> 1. If the ground crew states that it won't fit, simply say "Hummm it
always
> fits in (fill in the blank with their competitor) overhead... is your
space
> smaller"?
>
> 2. There is also a document written by the Security Regulation
Administrator
> to Thomas Lee the president of the Musicians Union stating that they are
to
> allow you to carry on your guitars.
>
> 3. Buy a Steinberger or Klein guitar
>
> I have posted a copy of this document to my web site for those who may
want
> one.
>
> www.harryjacobson.net/airplane.pdf
>
>
> Harry Jacobson
> www.harryjacobson.net
>
>
From: John Rethorst <ilove@spam...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:24:12 GMT
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
In article <5K40c.5184$<C65.3680@nwrddc01...>>, "JD"
<<jdb5025nospam@yahoo...>> wrote:
> If you've pulled this stunt and actually got them to retrieve your baggage
> from the hold I'd be very surprised. The more likely result would be you
> walking back to the gate with your guitar while your checked baggage went on
> vacation without you. They don't "have" to retrieve your checked bags if you
> refuse to board and most times they won't especially if it means delaying
> departure. Trust me folks, this is a strategy you don't want to play chicken
> with them on.
I think that new regulations prohibit planes from carrying checked baggage
if the passenger does not board the flight. I'm not sure about that, nor
do I know the details.
--
John Rethorst
jrethorst -at- post -dot- com
From: James Doe <phonyaddress@Imadeitup...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:53:02 GMT
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:24:12 GMT, <ilove@spam...> (John Rethorst)
wrote:
>I think that new regulations prohibit planes from carrying checked baggage
>if the passenger does not board the flight. I'm not sure about that, nor
>do I know the details.
You are correct in that if the passenger does not show up, they cannot
depart with those bags on the plane. I don't know if they are allowed
to make an exception when the passenger is refused boarding or refuses
boarding. I suspect there's no slack there - if they're smart.
However, the events of 9-11 tend to make me believe they are not
very smart.
From: Terence <troisnois@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:01:42 -0000
Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie
Bob and JD....
actually, since 9/11 it is _mandatory_ for all airlines to offload check-in
luggage which is not accompanied by the passenger who checked it in. It's a
safety procedure because one could easily check in a bomb, refuse to board
and kaboom.
I'm sure that they don't give a damn about my personal problems, but they
sure as hell will care about the safety of everyone else and not getting on
the wrong side of airline regulations. Now, having said that, it is not
likely that they will detain me because they have little "just cause"
because I would have boarded with my guitar which has been done previously
(prior precedent). I was checking with some friends who do law and it's a
pretty good for litigation if they do detain you.
--
Warmest Regards,
Terence
www.goodacoustics.com
www.goodacoustics.co.uk
"Dorgan" <<dorgan@fltg...>> wrote in message
news:<1041n173co14i41@corp...>...
>
> "Terence" <<troisnois@hotmail...>> wrote :
> > 2. turn stubborn and refuse to board without my guitar. Insist on
talking
> > to the supervisor and explain the situation to them calmly and try
> > reasoning and charming again. If not, then absolutely refuse to baord
> > without the guitar. That means that they _have_ to unload the luggage
and
> > rummage around for my 3-4 small non-descript bags to take away if I'm
not
> > boarding.
>
>
> Don't take offense, but that's just plain silly.
> That won't work in the US.
> They'll happily let your bags stay on the plane and make the trip without
> you.
> And I wouldn't blame them one bit.
> We had this terrorist attack over here that involved airlines (you might
> have heard about it) and they just don't give a shit anymore about your
> personal problems. They're too busy trying to get the majority of their
> travelers to their destination safely.
> Bob Dorgan
>
>
From: Hedberg <hhedberg@swbell...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:19:12 -0600
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:01:42 -0000, "Terence" <<troisnois@hotmail...>>
wrote:
>Bob and JD....
>
>actually, since 9/11 it is _mandatory_ for all airlines to offload check-in
>luggage which is not accompanied by the passenger who checked it in. It's a
>safety procedure because one could easily check in a bomb, refuse to board
>and kaboom.
>
>I'm sure that they don't give a damn about my personal problems, but they
>sure as hell will care about the safety of everyone else and not getting on
>the wrong side of airline regulations. Now, having said that, it is not
>likely that they will detain me because they have little "just cause"
>because I would have boarded with my guitar which has been done previously
>(prior precedent). I was checking with some friends who do law and it's a
>pretty good for litigation if they do detain you.
You've actually done this? You've convinced airline employees to fill
out forms for you and/or refused to board a plane? My guess is that
if you pull some kind of stunt like that it would end up being very
embarrassing and very costly and that you may spend a day or two in
custody. These people (airline security/police) have guns, no sense
of humor, no tolerance for pranks, and the law (or at least the power
of the law) on their side. Any deviation from the norm or appearance
of intent to cause any sort of disturbance will get security involved
and from the reports of such confrontations that I have read about,
you will lose.
From: Terence <troisnois@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:34:36 -0000
Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie
I have tried to get people to fill out the forms but they called the
supervisor. I explained to the supervisor the situation, produced the letter
mentioned above and whilst he was thinking about it, I said: 'look I don't
want to cause any trouble, but my guitar is very valuable and precious to me
as it was made especially for me and I really treasure it. I'm really quite
willing to not board if I can't garrantee it's safety.'
He relented and I was grateful of course.
If security had been involved, it would have been good material to sue for,
or so I've been informed by barristers and solicitors. As there is no
'just-cause' for detaining; it's your right to refuse to board a plane.
Just remember, I didn't make a scene, didn't raise my voice, I remained calm
and courteous throughout. If you were shouting or throwing a wobbly, that
would be very different. The law in an airport especially past immigration
is slightly from the country, but it more or less states that detaining of
any persons is permissible if there is just cause to suspect any dangerous
or volatile situation.
Warmest Regards,
Terence
A better way would be to put it this way: "when a man knocks on your door
saying it's the police, do you open it or do you look through the keyhole
and ask politely for indentification?"
www.goodacoustics.com
www.goodacoustics.co.uk
"Hedberg" <<hhedberg@swbell...>> wrote in message
news:<48t14093mkuhcbls5ia2q6n587s0k22aju@4ax...>...
> On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:01:42 -0000, "Terence" <<troisnois@hotmail...>>
> wrote:
>
> >Bob and JD....
> >
> >actually, since 9/11 it is _mandatory_ for all airlines to offload
check-in
> >luggage which is not accompanied by the passenger who checked it in. It's
a
> >safety procedure because one could easily check in a bomb, refuse to
board
> >and kaboom.
> >
> >I'm sure that they don't give a damn about my personal problems, but they
> >sure as hell will care about the safety of everyone else and not getting
on
> >the wrong side of airline regulations. Now, having said that, it is not
> >likely that they will detain me because they have little "just cause"
> >because I would have boarded with my guitar which has been done
previously
> >(prior precedent). I was checking with some friends who do law and it's a
> >pretty good for litigation if they do detain you.
>
> You've actually done this? You've convinced airline employees to fill
> out forms for you and/or refused to board a plane? My guess is that
> if you pull some kind of stunt like that it would end up being very
> embarrassing and very costly and that you may spend a day or two in
> custody. These people (airline security/police) have guns, no sense
> of humor, no tolerance for pranks, and the law (or at least the power
> of the law) on their side. Any deviation from the norm or appearance
> of intent to cause any sort of disturbance will get security involved
> and from the reports of such confrontations that I have read about,
> you will lose.
From: Hedberg <hhedberg@swbell...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:59:27 -0600
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:34:36 -0000, "Terence" <<troisnois@hotmail...>>
wrote:
>I have tried to get people to fill out the forms but they called the
>supervisor. I explained to the supervisor the situation, produced the letter
>mentioned above and whilst he was thinking about it, I said: 'look I don't
>want to cause any trouble, but my guitar is very valuable and precious to me
>as it was made especially for me and I really treasure it. I'm really quite
>willing to not board if I can't garrantee it's safety.'
>
>He relented and I was grateful of course.
>
>If security had been involved, it would have been good material to sue for,
>or so I've been informed by barristers and solicitors. As there is no
>'just-cause' for detaining; it's your right to refuse to board a plane.
There is just cause for detaining if you're interfering with an
airline operation (which you very well may be if you refuse to board
-- probably just for suggesting that you won't board). It also might
be extortion just for threatening to refuse to board. You're looking
at possibly as much as fifteen years though you'd probably get off
with a fine/probation.
As for the advice that you have received from barristers and
solicitors, I'd suggest that you ask them how many suits they have
successfully pursued when people posing possible security threats have
been detained.
>Just remember, I didn't make a scene, didn't raise my voice, I remained calm
>and courteous throughout. If you were shouting or throwing a wobbly, that
>would be very different. The law in an airport especially past immigration
>is slightly from the country, but it more or less states that detaining of
>any persons is permissible if there is just cause to suspect any dangerous
>or volatile situation.
>
Right, and exactly why do you suppose they're going to get your bags
off the plane? It's because you have created a dangerous situation
not to mention a situation which is greatly inconveniencing a couple
hundred people so that you can very slightly decrease the chance of
damaging your guitar.
I understand your desire to carry your guitar on board and, it seems,
in most cases that won't present a problem. When it becomes a
problem, though, you're engaging in very risky and potentially costly
behavior if you threaten to refuse to board or in fact do refuse to
board. My wag is that if you pull a stunt like this at an American
airport you're going to lose.
From: Hedberg <hhedberg@swbell...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 15:15:00 -0600
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 13:09:25 -0800, "Rick" <<me@privacy...>> wrote:
[...]
>
>What drugs are you on? Here in American people are
>free to either board a plane or not. There's no such thing
>as being arrested for deciding not to board an airplane --
>people do it all the time for a variety of reasons -- fear
>of flying, last minute schedule conflicts, etc etc.
>
>Rick
>
People fail to board all the time, I'm sure. What we are talking
about here is someone refusing to board for the sole purpose of
delaying a flight and costing the airline money; for deliberately
creating a situation which is defined to be unsafe. There may be no
law against refusing to board an airplane, but there certainly is a
law against interfering with airline operations.
From: JD <jdb5025nospam@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:53:13 GMT
"Harry J" <<nospam@harryj...>> wrote in message
news:<K7udnTXrI-9A8aLdRVn-vg@comcast...>
(snip)
>
> Be aware that the Boing 777 has tiny overhead racks, but they always
> take
> the guitar in their closet.
The 777 stowbin will accomodate an average dreadnaught case in the outboard
aisles. The center stowbins are smaller.
>
> There are 3 things you can try if you encounter a problem.
> I had to use this twice
>
> 1. If the ground crew states that it won't fit, simply say "Hummm it
> always fits in (fill in the blank with their competitor) overhead...
> is your space smaller"?
At least in the case of Boeing aircraft, the stowbin dimensions are the same
regardless of which carrier's plane it is for any given model.
JD
From: Dave <willig@kingwoodcable...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: 28 Feb 2004 20:54:31 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
I read all twelve of these messages with great interest. I hope
everybody knows more about guitars than they do about flying
commercial airlines. People who write books and articles about how to
get into first class must not fly much if they are willing to give
away all their secrets. We don't have that many seats up front and
they are always full. Doesn't that ring a little strange?? I would
like to know how often the people offering "in the know" information
on how to get the airline to allow them to carry on their guitar
actually fly. There are so many factors you guys haven't addressed
and probably don't know about it is scary. I fly about 900 hours a
year, that's well over 300,000 miles equal to 4 days a week equal to 8
or 10 flights a week. I am also the guy who is up front making the
final decisions regarding the safety of my flight. I am the MOST
guitar friendly pilot you will ever meet. If you refuse to board
without your guitar in an attempt to intimidate one our gate agents or
flight attendents have at it. Enjoy the wait. Harassing a gate agent
or Flight Attendant will get you nowhere if it is brought to the
cockpits attention.
From: Terence <troisnois@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:00:43 -0000
Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie
Dave,
true, true, I only have partial knowledge of the airline rules and
regulations and I agree that the ultimate decision rests with the pilot.
Unfortunately, I almost never see the ground/gate crew consult anyone
higher.... maybe it's the sneaky microphones that I don't see.
Nevertheless I feel like I should point out that this probably only works if
you remain calm and polite but firm. I try my very best to appear like I'm
not threatening or harassing anyone, just like an ordinary passenger asking
for something which is usually given.
In anycase, I haven't flown with guitar for a long time and I'm pretty tired
of lugging about a large-ish instrument so I've gotten the travel guitar if
I don't feel like bringing a calton-ed one.
Just curious but what are the baggage regulations regarding non-attenders?
Also, is the pilot consultanted over matter like these immediately, or
depending on how the ground/gate crew feel?
--
Warmest Regards,
Terence
www.goodacoustics.com
www.goodacoustics.co.uk
"Dave" <<willig@kingwoodcable...>> wrote in message
news:<23670a3c.0402282054.b2fa9cc@posting...>...
> I read all twelve of these messages with great interest. I hope
> everybody knows more about guitars than they do about flying
> commercial airlines. People who write books and articles about how to
> get into first class must not fly much if they are willing to give
> away all their secrets. We don't have that many seats up front and
> they are always full. Doesn't that ring a little strange?? I would
> like to know how often the people offering "in the know" information
> on how to get the airline to allow them to carry on their guitar
> actually fly. There are so many factors you guys haven't addressed
> and probably don't know about it is scary. I fly about 900 hours a
> year, that's well over 300,000 miles equal to 4 days a week equal to 8
> or 10 flights a week. I am also the guy who is up front making the
> final decisions regarding the safety of my flight. I am the MOST
> guitar friendly pilot you will ever meet. If you refuse to board
> without your guitar in an attempt to intimidate one our gate agents or
> flight attendents have at it. Enjoy the wait. Harassing a gate agent
> or Flight Attendant will get you nowhere if it is brought to the
> cockpits attention.
From: Stan Gosnell <fakename@fakehost...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: 29 Feb 2004 21:21:20 GMT
Organization: PHi
"Alexander Mcleod" <<sandman@sprintmail...>> wrote in
news:d7o0c.1631$<Zo6.359@twister...>:
> From my personal experiences dating back to before 9/11, flights were
> held and the baggage removed if people and luggage did not match up.
> I experienced this on both domestic flights in the US and on
> international flights from the US to Asia.
Doesn't seem to be the case now. Yesterday my bags went to a different
airport on a different airplane than I was on, even though I had received a
personal guarantee from an airline customer service rep that my bag would
be on the same plane I was.
And on that same trip I saw someone put a guitar in a hard case in the
overhead on a Delta flight. The flight was pretty full, but everything
eventually got squeezed in, somehow. Some airline employees are friendly
and try to help the customers, and some aren't. And some are just having a
really bad day and you may be out of luck that day, while they would be
smiling at you on another day. Every day is a different day.
--
Regards,
Stan
From: Dave <willig@kingwoodcable...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: 29 Feb 2004 09:36:05 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
"Terence" <<troisnois@hotmail...>> wrote in message news:<<1078045102.839797@ananke...>>...
> Dave,
>
> true, true, I only have partial knowledge of the airline rules and
> regulations and I agree that the ultimate decision rests with the pilot.
> Unfortunately, I almost never see the ground/gate crew consult anyone
> higher.... maybe it's the sneaky microphones that I don't see.
>
> Nevertheless I feel like I should point out that this probably only works if
> you remain calm and polite but firm. I try my very best to appear like I'm
> not threatening or harassing anyone, just like an ordinary passenger asking
> for something which is usually given.
>
> In anycase, I haven't flown with guitar for a long time and I'm pretty tired
> of lugging about a large-ish instrument so I've gotten the travel guitar if
> I don't feel like bringing a calton-ed one.
>
> Just curious but what are the baggage regulations regarding non-attenders?
>
> Also, is the pilot consultanted over matter like these immediately, or
> depending on how the ground/gate crew feel?
>
> --
> Warmest Regards,
> Terence
I agree, remaining calm is the only way to go. Ok, here is a more in
depth response. First, even with my extensive background as a pilot I
can't speak for other airlines. I work for Continental. Also, this
is a complicated business, my view is from the cockpit so I am not
fully versed in every facet of the airline. That said I will try to
address the points above. Anything prior to 9/11 is probably out of
date. If you haven't traveled since then your frame of reference is
skewed. The rules for international and domestic are different. I
will address domestic issues. All overhead bins are not created
equal. CAL has installed oversized bins so we could accept larger
carryon bags. Not all Boeings are the same, they have different
options you can select. There are also after market refits. See the
link below about CAL's bins. The positive bag match (domestic) is only
required if the airport doesn't meet the DOT requirements for checked
bag screening. You don't know which airports comply. I can tell you
most do now. If the airport meets the EDS and CAPS requirements
positive bag match isn't required domestically. Most airports meet
that requirement. See link. I would hope if you refuse to get on the
airplane you would get your bags back, but it may not happen. In fact
if you check in early and a flight to your destination hasn't left yet
your bag could be put on it while you are waiting for your later
scheduled flight. The gate agents are trained to accommodate, if you
don't want to get on the flight that is ok with them. Some of them
are assholes. If you become belligerent or aggressive it will only go
downhill. Generally the pilots are only brought into the loop if there
is problem that the gate agents feel may effect the safety of the
flight. A beligerent passenger would fall into that catagory. We
don't take problems into the air. Our goal is to resolve it on the
ground. If it can't be resolved the problem will remain behind when
we depart. We are rarely consulted over gate issues. A question about
carryon would probably be elevated to a customer service supervisor
not the flight crew. I am very alert to instruments and always make it
a point to talk the musician and assure them their instrument will be
taken care of. Of course I am in the minority, most pilots aren't
musicians (a lot are though). If I don't know about it I can't do
anything. I have even jammed before a flight in the terminal with
other players. Now that's fun! You should see the looks I get.
I couldn't find the final ruling on the NPRM link below, but it has
been incorportad. Between the TSA, FAA and DOT I could spend hours
looking for this stuff. I have better things to do. This link will
explain the domestic bag rules even though it was an early draft. It
looks like the last update was Feb 2002.
http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=53883&docketid=5536
http://www.travelite.org/monthlytips/0101.html
Dave
From: Nil <rednoise@REMOVETHIScomcast...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:27:15 GMT
Organization: Comcast Online
On 27 Feb 2004, "Harry J" <<nospam@harryj...>> wrote in
news:<K7udnTXrI-9A8aLdRVn-vg@comcast...>:
> I have been doing a bit of international touring and have yet to
> have a major problem.
>
> I leave my flight case at home, take the strat sized gig bag on
> board.
I will be travelling to England in a few weeks to play, and I'm taking
my Telecaster. I've been trying to decide whether to (a) do it your
way, (b) check it in a hard-shell case and hope for the best, or (c)
carry the case to the gate in the hope that they'll let me carry the
case on and let them gate-check it if they won't. My worries are:
- in the case of (a), if they decide to not let me carry the gig bag
on, then they'll check with the other baggage, and it risks getting
broken. I did have to surrender a Strat in a gig bag once one during a
domestic US flight, and it survived.
- in the case of (c) I've done this before going to England and it
survived. I wasn't really expecting to be able to carry the hardshell
case on, but I felt better having it hand-carried to the baggage hold.
However, the airline, Virgin, left it sitting right in the middle of
the floor in the customs area, where it could easily have been stolen
before I found it.
I'll be watching this thread to help me decide.
> There are 3 things you can try if you encounter a problem.
> I had to use this twice
>
> 1. If the ground crew states that it won't fit, simply say "Hummm
> it always fits in (fill in the blank with their competitor)
> overhead... is your space smaller"?
I don't know why that would make any difference to them. They've
already got your money and you're standing in line. Would you really
walk away and buy another ticket on another airline?
From: Stonker7 <stonker7@aol...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: 06 Mar 2004 22:50:28 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>I think that new regulations prohibit planes from carrying checked baggage
>if the passenger does not board the flight.
Only if the situations clearly shows the bags and the pax are not on the same
acft due to a situation that is not due anything the pax can control. Such as
weather, mechanical problems, etc.
Fred Albert
From: Stonker7 <stonker7@aol...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: 06 Mar 2004 22:52:26 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>Of course, they may deny him permission to board
>and take him and his bags into that little room...
>
Oh yeah ... and I would be the first to want that to happen ... too many wierd
things going on these days ... plz folks, don't play games.
Fred Albert
From: Stonker7 <stonker7@aol...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: 06 Mar 2004 22:55:46 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>They'll happily let your bags stay on the plane and make the trip without
>you.
No Bob, if the situation is deemed deliberatly caused by the pax, the bag will
be removed, no matter how long it takes.
Fred Albert
From: Stonker7 <stonker7@aol...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules
Date: 06 Mar 2004 23:18:40 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
>What drugs are you on? Here in American people are
>free to either board a plane or not. There's no such thing
>as being arrested for deciding not to board an airplane --
>people do it all the time for a variety of reasons -- fear
>of flying, last minute schedule conflicts, etc etc.
Not arrested, but ...maybe you make such an ass out of yourself the airlines
decides, and justifiably so, they don't want your business. This happens more
often then you think. You end up on a computer data base that is reflected on
future bookings. They warn the next bunch of folks about your previous travel
history. I know ... I've been warned about such pax.
Maybe I've missed something ... why all this talk about scaming the airlines?
If we were talking about scamming musicians and performers out of clearly
defined perameters in a gig contract, would we be as quick to say " yeah ...
let's get as much as we can out of them, abuse them, minipulate them, "bend the
rules"?
Just get on the plane with your guitar in a gigbag, a small tote bag, check the
rest and be happy ... happens all the time ... sheesh
Scuuz me, gotta play my guitar and get centered,
Fred Albert
| Bending airline rules replies to Bob and Hedberg. [4] |
|---|
From: Terence <troisnois@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules replies to Bob and Hedberg.
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 21:34:43 -0000
Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie
Hedberg>>
I disagree: it is your right to refuse to board, just as it is your right to
refuse to buy CFC products. There was a prior precendent set at Manchester
airport when IK refused to board because they wouldn't allow a pet to be
brought on board. He was detained by airport security on 11/10/02 but was
released after 4 hours. Court rules in favour of claimant, defendant ordered
to pay recompense of 5,000 sterling.
<<Right, and exactly why do you suppose they're going to get your bags off
the plane? It's because you have created a dangerous situation .>>
Again, I disagree, I did not create a dangerous situation by refusing to
board. I would have created a dangerous situation if I had tried to get the
plane to take off with my luggage without me. The act of _refusing to board_
is not per se creating a dangerous situation; as it was decided in the case
of IK. There is no extortion because I'm not threatening to delay them, I'm
threatening to not board, which is a right on mine.... is refusing to buy
CFC products which causes a company to go bust unless they change to non-CFC
aerosols extortion?
<<My wag is that if you pull a stunt like this at an American airport you're
going to lose.>>
American airport yes, past immigration it's governed by a different set of
laws. The internal security act of the US is quite well set out and
unambiguous. In Singapore or Malaysia, it's really open to intepretation but
still, once you're past immigration, the initial set of laws governing
detainment is the same almost worldwide.... what happen after is different
though.
BTW, the guitar in question was a OO size in a soft case. No way would I try
it with a Calton or a TKL. No way would I risk a soft case in a cargo hold!!
Bob>>
No I agree, I'd be _pissed_ as well if I had to wait for some tightwad to
make a point and bend the rules to get his guitar onboard. However, please
note that at no point in time have I become upset or lose my temper; I
remain calm but firm on my stance. To all appearances, you may not even know
that I've had this conversation with someone because I'm always let on and
the flight isn't delayed at all.... now, _if_ I did refuse to board, there
would be a heck of a delay while they look for my bags.... if they'd just
cheer up and let me through....
My point is that if I do this, then they would be more likely to let the
next one on....
I see your point entirely.
My point is that if there was a blanket rule to say that anything over a
certain size was never-ever-ever allowed to board barring actually buying a
seat for it, then there wouldn't be any issue. However, the fact that
sometimes you get on, others you don't seems to me like it's grey area which
is dependent on how people feel on a particular day. I'm trying to tip the
balance in favour of having guitars allowed on all the time. I'm a bit of a
dick when it comes to situations were someone tries to make my life
difficult just because they can; I always try to make them take
responsibilty (shock, horror! responsibility with accountability say it
isn't so?) and make them see that I can be equally difficult but please be
reasonable and let's be friends.
I haven't travelled with my guitar lately, but nowadays I'd place theguitar
in a calto and since I'm with a better insurance company, check it in and
rest easy.
--
Warmest Regards,
Terence
www.goodacoustics.com
www.goodacoustics.co.uk
"Dorgan" <<dorgan@fltg...>> wrote in message
news:<1041ut7s78avseb@corp...>...
>
> "Terence" <<troisnois@hotmail...>> wrote in message
> news:<1077998363.740596@ananke...>...
> > Bob and JD....
> >
> > actually, since 9/11 it is _mandatory_ for all airlines to offload
> check-in
> > luggage which is not accompanied by the passenger who checked it in.
It's
> a
> > safety procedure because one could easily check in a bomb, refuse to
board
> > and kaboom.
> >
> > I'm sure that they don't give a damn about my personal problems, but
they
> > sure as hell will care about the safety of everyone else and not getting
> on
> > the wrong side of airline regulations. Now, having said that, it is not
> > likely that they will detain me because they have little "just cause"
> > because I would have boarded with my guitar which has been done
previously
> > (prior precedent). I was checking with some friends who do law and it's
a
> > pretty good for litigation if they do detain you.
> > --
> > Warmest Regards,
> > Terence
>
> Okay, I'll take your word for that. That makes perfect sense.
> But if I was one of the passengers that had to wait for take-off because
of
> your actions, you'd damned sure hear about it...I'm not shy!
>
> Again, no offense intended... I'm giving you an honest reaction.
> If I had to wait for an unusual amount of time because another passenger
was
> upset because he couldn't bring aboard a carry-on piece that the airline
> ruled inappropriate, I'm sure I'd say something.
> Let me rephrase that... I KNOW I'd say something.
>
> And--- if I was the airline worker, you'd have a harder time than you've
> described.
> They're wired tighter than a G string, they've got a tremendous workload,
> and they've got a tremendous responsibility on their shoulders at this
time.
> Maybe you're within your rights, but I can't help but feel that you're
> pushing your luck in an area that is extremely sensitive right now.
> I'll shut up now.....
> Bob Dorgan
>
>
From: Don Evans <gtrdonevans@aol...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules replies to Bob and Hedberg.
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 02:00:15 -0500
"Terence" <<troisnois@hotmail...>> wrote in message
news:<1078003948.144011@ananke...>...
> Hedberg>>
>
><<snip>>
>
> I haven't travelled with my guitar lately, but nowadays I'd place
theguitar
> in a calto and since I'm with a better insurance company, check it in and
> rest easy.
>
> --
> Warmest Regards,
> Terence
>
> www.goodacoustics.com
> www.goodacoustics.co.uk
>
><<snip>>
If you don't mind my asking, who insures your checked guitar? Companies
I've checked have stopped doing that.
Don
From: Terence <troisnois@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules replies to Bob and Hedberg.
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:09:55 -0000
Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie
Music Guard Pavilion in the UK
--
Warmest Regards,
Terence
www.goodacoustics.com
www.goodacoustics.co.uk
"Don Evans" <<gtrdonevans@aol...>> wrote in message
news:c1s2m2$1lhu5d$<1@ID-210402...>...
>
> "Terence" <<troisnois@hotmail...>> wrote in message
> news:<1078003948.144011@ananke...>...
> > Hedberg>>
> >
> ><<snip>>
> >
> > I haven't travelled with my guitar lately, but nowadays I'd place
> theguitar
> > in a calto and since I'm with a better insurance company, check it in
and
> > rest easy.
> >
> > --
> > Warmest Regards,
> > Terence
> >
> > www.goodacoustics.com
> > www.goodacoustics.co.uk
> >
> ><<snip>>
>
> If you don't mind my asking, who insures your checked guitar? Companies
> I've checked have stopped doing that.
>
> Don
>
>
From: Hedberg <hhedberg@swbell...>
Subject: Re: Bending airline rules replies to Bob and Hedberg.
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:30:01 -0600
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 21:34:43 -0000, "Terence" <<troisnois@hotmail...>>
wrote:
[...]
>Again, I disagree, I did not create a dangerous situation by refusing to
>board. I would have created a dangerous situation if I had tried to get the
>plane to take off with my luggage without me. The act of _refusing to board_
>is not per se creating a dangerous situation; as it was decided in the case
>of IK. There is no extortion because I'm not threatening to delay them, I'm
>threatening to not board, which is a right on mine.... is refusing to buy
>CFC products which causes a company to go bust unless they change to non-CFC
>aerosols extortion?
You're quibbling; saying you didn't create the unsafe condition is
like saying that "the bullet is to blame." As for the CFCs, that's a
very bad analogy. When you refuse to board the plane, you are
engaging behavior specifically designed to cause the airline to have
to do something that they would not otherwise have to do. Your
behavior has direct and predictable consequences. You are imposing a
burden on the airline, in my opinion, that you have no right to
impose.
All that being said, I'll confess that I don't have any idea what the
approved solution answer to this little question (whether or not you
could get into serious trouble playing this sort of game) is -- I'm
just speculating. Probably it depends very much on the whims of the
airline personnel that you are dealing with. I very much doubt that
you'd get much sympathy in an American court if you thought your
rights had been infringed, though.
I also don't know how common it is for airlines to have to removeluggage from planes or how long it would delay things. My guess is
that it would not be a long delay.
[...]
>
>My point is that if there was a blanket rule to say that anything over a
>certain size was never-ever-ever allowed to board barring actually buying a
>seat for it, then there wouldn't be any issue. However, the fact that
>sometimes you get on, others you don't seems to me like it's grey area which
>is dependent on how people feel on a particular day.
I agree with you that the rules should be made and enforced. If
guitars (or any other large items) are not going to be permitted as
carry on baggage, they shouldn't get into the gate area.
>I'm trying to tip the
>balance in favour of having guitars allowed on all the time. I'm a bit of a
>dick when it comes to situations were someone tries to make my life
>difficult just because they can; I always try to make them take
>responsibilty (shock, horror! responsibility with accountability say it
>isn't so?) and make them see that I can be equally difficult but please be
>reasonable and let's be friends.
Yes, ironically or not, people should expect to be held responsible
for their behavior and the logical, predictable consequences of that
behavior.